Series on chassidim s/o, diff types of chassidim

amother

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:49 am

I have made an observation about chassidim that I would love to share and discuss. Please lets keep this very respectful and open.
First a bit of background:, I am not currently part of the chassidic world, but I have connections to many different types of chassidim, as well as yeshivish, modern orthodox and jpf.. I love and respect all Jews.
So, like Peter said, there are many different sects and groups within the chassidic world, with different standards.
I find on this site, people use the term chassidish, heimish etc. I think thise words mean different things to different people. So Im writing this out to shed some clarity.

I think chassidim can be divided into three broad groups. (Broad being the key word here. Also, you may feel you are somewhere in the middle of two...)
Group A are chassidim who belong to Satmar, Bobov, Belz, Viznitz, Skver, Gur, Klausenberg etc.
These chassidim will have a rebbe that is their final authority. They will send their kids to schools and camps that are run by the chassidus and will often daven in the chassidus's shul. They often live in the same neighborhood or have their own kirya.

The men wear distinctive garb; each chassidus has their own "look", but in general, the men have beards (often untrimmed), peyos, wear long rekels, daven with gartels, and wear shtriemels/spodiks on shabbos. They don't wear ties.

The women dress conservatively, short sheitels, sometimes covered, and have many chumros in tznius.

These chassidim speak with a hav'ara of the town their chassidus originated from, and speak in Yiddish (especially the menfolk and children). In some of these groups, the girls don't learn from inside a chumash. Boys get married at around 18. There is a strong emphasis on culture and tradition.

The chassidim in this group consider themselves the "real" chassidim, and don't view those in the other two groups as "really chassidish." (For reasons as will be explained)

Group B is Lubavitch
Lubavitch is in a category of their own because although they also have a Rebbe that they follow, he is no longer alive and has left no successor. They live all over the world, but also have a large community in Crown Heights. They also send their kids to their own schools, camps and seminaries whenever possible. They daven in their own shuls. Many shuls have the facade of 770 on the building. (Many men have 770 embroidered in their tallis bag.)

The men also have a distinctive dress on Shabbos, though no shtreimel. During the week some chassidim will dress yeshivish, others will wear regular clothes (colored shirts, Jeans, whatever.) Some wear their shirts untucked. They grow their beards. Children have payos but men dont. They wear gartels and have many customs that are unique to their group.

The women dress very stylishly (some dress more conservatively), with long wigs. They don't hold so much of wearing a snood out of the house. They dont have chumros in tznius.

Lubavitcher chassidim speak english and many of them are very well spoken, since they train them to be shluchim. Some speak in Yiddish (but it is a different hav'ara from the polish/Hungarian chassidim). Girls learn "inside" at a high level.
Chassidus is taught as a separate subject. Both girl and boys learn chassidus in depth. I would say this is a huge difference between the two groups. Group A thinks that they are the real chassidim because of the way they dress and stick to their culture, and Group B thinks they are the real chassidim because they learn chassidic philosophy.

Group C is what they call Chassidish Open minded.
This group of chassidim are people who may have come from a more conservative chassidish family (from group A) or gone to their school, but have taken a different path. They may or may not be attached to a rebbe or specific chassidus. They send their kids to Bais Yaakovs or other community schools, and regular (unaffiliated) camps. They daven all over.

The men: often have very close trimmed beards, sometimes curly payos. Shabbos they wear bekeshe and shtreimel and during the week they wear regular clothes.
The women dress very trendy and stylishly with Long shaitels.

They speak in English. The men daven and make kiddush with the chassidish hav'arah. They dress their kids stylishly (ie, not like the children of group A).

In summary, group A doesnt view groups B and C as "regular chassidish" because of the way they dress and because they mingle more with people outside of their community. Group B considers themselves more chassidish than the other two groups because they actually learn chassidus. Group C considers themselves regular chassidim, who are proud to be chassidim.

There you have . Hope this helps someone...we can all learn from each other.

Ps. Certain groups , such as breslov, and stollin don't fit into any of these groups.

amother

Pewter

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 2:12 am

Interesting summary. Although much of this is stereotypes, I think it's a pretty interesting observation.

amother

Violet

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 2:55 am

I disagree. Lubavitch is not chassidish. They are chassidim/ a chasid who study chasidus but they are never under the umbrella term chassidish. Chassidish does include breslov and stolin and they are more nuanced than two types. There are chassidish people that fall in between the two groups you described.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 5:24 am

You need to add group d. They are between group a-b. Many people who are chassidish, and the men dress like group a, sometimes go to rebbe or tisch, boys were curly peyos, speak and learn in Yiddish, chassidish havara, they go to an unaffiliated or mixed chassidish Cheder. (Usually because they don’t live in the city of their chassidish.)
Girls go to unaffiliated chassidish Bais Yaakov, learn in Yiddish, but main stream havara Mothers dress conservative compared to just plain frum, but still regular wigs, more mainstream clothing, not covered wigs or beige tights. Often can’t distinct from a frum yeshivish litvish woman. Depending on the individual father will ask rebbe before making big life decisions. Shidduch, baby name, medical procedure, where to send a child to school, etc.

Raisin

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 6:15 am

I think that is a pretty accurate description. You also have a really wide range in chabad though. People who learn tanya and have pictures of the Rebbe and wear Lubavitch clothing and maybe go to a chabad shul but don't choose to send their kids to Lubavitch schools or camps. A lot of Lubavitch schools, especially the boys schools, don't teach english at all.

You could probably split chabad into several groups. Also a wide divide into exposure to secular media. (but I guess that is normal in other chassidic groups)

Lubavtichers also use the terms Chabad Chassidus vs Chagas Chassidus. Everyone else is Chagas, ie the original chassidus as set up by the Besht. (not sure where Breslov falls). Lubavitch follows chabad.

amother

Peach

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 6:22 am

One small point, not sure where you got the idea that Lubavitch men don't have payos, of course they do, it's a mitzvah from the Torah.

amother

Ginger

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 6:33 am

Im interested to know where Stolin fit in? You said they dont fit in to these groups, I thought they were part of the latter one...

amother

Brunette

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 7:13 am

One adjustment that I would make is, there is a lot of group C in Chabad, which you "left" and included in group B. The same way you wouldn't include the descriptions of group C in group A, a lot of the descriptions in group B are not "acceptable/accepted" in group B, only that group B doesn't necessarily "throw out" those people so maybe that's why you kept them in the group B category and not in group C.

amother

Jade

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 7:38 am

There is a misconception in Chabad and Breslov that the other chassidim don’t learn chassidus, which makes the others not a real chassidus. That is not true.
Chassidim like Belz, Skver, Rachmestrivka, Chernobyl, and Gur learn seforim like the bnei yissoscher, meor einiyim and the sfas emes.
I am not sure if Bobov, Klausenburg and viznitz, have their own chassidishe seforim (They probably do) but they definitely also learn from the ones listed above.
All of them learn from the Noam Elimelech, Toldos Yakov Yosef, and other chassidishe seforim.
Satmar learns the divrei yoel but that is more shitah than orginal chassidishe seforim, since they are more of a kehilla as is Pupa. Toldos Aharon and Toldos Avrum Yitzchok have many similarities to Satmar because of their shittos. Nitra, Spinka, Tzelem and Tosh are all a spinoff from Satmar today as well. More like Kehillos.
I would say Stolin, Biyan and Stetchin are modern day Satmar with a twist. Since the are more like kehillos today.
I am not sure is Prewar Munkatch was more like Satmar or Belz.
Kehillos like Shomrei Eminim and Mevakshei Hashem are more neutral witht people who still go to a Rebbe for Hadrachah.
There are some Smaller Rebbishe families that don’t have schools of their own that fall into all of these catagories.
There are also many blended chassidishe familes today who don’t have a specific Rebbe, respect all Rebbes and send to one of these mosdos.
All of these groups have people who left that are still considered chassidish in name only, because of their ancestry.

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 7:49 am

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

There is a misconception in Chabad and Breslov that the other chassidim don’t learn chassidus. That is not true.
Chassidim like Belz, Skver, Rachmestrivka, Chernobyl, and Gur learn seforim like the bnei yissoscher, meor einiyim and pnei menachem.
I am not sure if Bobov and Klausenburg have their own chassidishe seforim but they definitely also learn from the ones listed above.

I will admit to having been naive of the sifrei chassidus that exist outside chabad.
I've heard of several lately- mainly a sefer written by an Admor of the past.

Can you tell me in which framework these sifrei chassidus are studied? Are they learned on one's own? In a group shiur? Do children learn from them in school?

To OP: of course lubavitcher men have payos. But they blend in with the beard and are not as noticeable.

amother

Emerald

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 7:51 am

What does stylishly mean? You say the parents in group C don’t dress their kids as stylishly as the parents in group A, but my husband’s family is Chassidish and the few times we’ve been around his family, the children were always dressed stylishly. Way more so than my MO kids LOL

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 7:54 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Chassidish means being a chossid of a Rebbe. Acting in the manner of a chossid.
Lubavitch is definitely chassidish.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 7:55 am

I think you need groups d e f g h I - all the way to z
That’s how many different types we are

amother

Jade

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 8:03 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

I think she means more American. Tshirts and colored shirts for adults for example.

amother

Jade

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 8:06 am

It is interesting that the machlokes between Lubavitch and the other chassidus, as well as Breslov go really far back, but the communities are still different until today.
Maybe it also has to do withe fact their Rebbis are not alive today anymore for hadrachah about today, so there is no one to make any restrictions. Today they are more integrated into society than other chassidim that keep themselves separate from society.
It can also be because of the large scale of kiruv they do, which exposes their kids to other influences and had an impact down the line.

amother

Jade

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 8:14 am

Now that we have chassidishe people in a neat little box, how about the non chassidim can do likewise without getting offended? LOL

watergirl

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 8:19 am

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

Breslover here. True, we do not have a living rebbe, but we ABSOLUTLY have our rabbonim, manhigim, and hadracha! The thing is, Breslov is not about "making restrictions". I would venture to say that chassidus is not about making restrictions in general. Some chassiduses make restrictions, but that is not what it is all about. Rebbe Nachman never made restrictions. He felt the 613 was enough.

amother

Jade

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 8:22 am

watergirl wrote:

The thing is that this is not about what we believe chassidus to be. The prewar Chassidishe Rebbes from were all about keeping separate from society.
It was a pretty big part of chassidus in the past.

thunderstorm

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 8:25 am

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

I think you need groups d e f g h I - all the way to z
That’s how many different types we are

I agree with this. I don’t fit any of those categories mentioned. There is a much broader spectrum than that in the Chasidish world.

amother

Jade

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 8:27 am

thunderstorm wrote:

I agree with this. I don’t fit any of those categories mentioned. There is a much broader spectrum than that in the Chasidish world.

In a way 3 groups is true for every kind of society.
There will always be the right, the left, and the center, with people falling into many categories in between.
In this specific instance, she catogarized them by level of integration into society.