S/o dif types of litvaks

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:18 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Since the German Kehillos were decimated by the holocaust, they don't have their own yeshivos. Many yekke boys learned in Litvish yeshivos and adopted yeshivish/litvish customs (while maintaining some of their own unique minhagim).

(told to my DD by a boy from a yekke/yeshivish family)

Right. The minhagim - wimple, 3 hours before milchig, etc. - endure, but the lifestyle is pretty much Litvish/yeshivish/JPF/MO.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:19 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

I actually would love to know more about the differences in the Litvish world in terms of the different derachim of learning/yeshivos.
What are the differences between Slabodka, Mir, Brisk etc. ?

You can find out about the differences in the yeshivos (though Mir and Slabodka have common roots in the Alter of Slobodka) but besides Brisk, I'm not sure if there are yeshivos with specific approaches that impact the full family. Besides the general yeshivas outlook/lifestyle.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:21 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

What is a litvak? What does it actually mean? Lithuanian? Then would it not be just people that are from or learned there?

Yekkish is not litvish, that much I know. I do not think other parts of europe are either. Only where those lithuanian borders were ( and the borders probably kept moving around).

So how do you say the not sefardi, mizrachi, chassidish, yekkish rest of europe? Is the only choice litvak or does it still exclude some? What are russians if they are not chassidish?

And jews who were in america before europe began chassidim, not chassidim?

Jews in America before the 1700s who maintained their unbroken Yiddishkeit are...I don't want to say unicorns but few and far between.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:24 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I've actually heard the opposite...I know people from yekke backgrounds whose children wear Talleisim at quite a young age (there was a family in our shul like this, before we moved.) However, some who went to yeshivos adopted the practice to wait 6 hours after meat, and I know yekke families who do this.

A family friend said that when he was in yeshiva he waited say to have a chocolate bar in public if there was fleishig for lunch. So that could be when the waiting started.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:25 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

Once people came to America nobody was trying to keep to their community. It sounds like you are visualizing some sort of segregation that just doesn't exist.

I think that people who aren't from America or whose families came after the war don't realize how much there was a bottom line. You were shomer Shabbos, you were probably marriage material. (There might have been some class distinctions and other distinctions but they tended to blur.)

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:26 pm

Crookshanks wrote:

Yekkes in Lakewood may not be so obvious but there is a community in Washington Heights that keeps all the minhagim. My family also keeps most minhagim, but my family is yeshivish in hashkafah so we don't follow yekkish hashkafa in going out to work, for example. My family is the most yeshivish of all our yekkish relatives (who are all doctors or lawyers without exception!).

My husband is an oberlander Hungarian who keeps all yekke minhagim. I think his great-great grandfather was confused LOL

amother

Yellow

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:41 pm

[A true German shul may be a bit different but I don't know how many exist anymore. I don't know of any people from a German background who still have boys wear a tallis after bar mitzvah. I think the only holdover is waiting 3 hrs instead of 6 after meat, but who can blame them for holding on to that, lol.[/quote]

I know of people who wear a Tallis from bar mitzvah on. They daven in my (non German) shul. Maybe it’s uncommon, but it definitely does exist.

Related to the topic of waiting 3 hours: I have a friend who waits 1; her family is Dutch.

Chayalle

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:49 pm

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

My husband is an oberlander Hungarian who keeps all yekke minhagim. I think his great-great grandfather was confused LOL

My grandfather was an Oberlander Hungarian. Three generations of his ancestors were Talmidim of the Chasam Sofer and kept yekkish minhagim. I remember my grandfather told me that his grandfather washed for Hamotzi on Shabbos before Kiddish.

My grandfather's father, however, went to Chassidish yeshivas in another part of Hungary that was more Chassidish, and married my great-grandmother who was from a Chassidish-Hungarian family. He started keeping minhagim like he saw in his yeshiva, many of which were Chassidish minhagim (including his havarah). And I think this happened a lot in Oberland Hungary.

Your husband is not confused, just his family kept their original minhagim.

keym

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:50 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Though there was a bit of "landmen" mentality.
One great grandfather married my great grandmother because they were both from villages "near" (around 45 minutes wagon ride each) kovno so that was enough for similar background.
This was in '35 in Brooklyn.

But also, shomer Shabbos men would stick together in college. And introduce each other to their sister's/cousins/etc.
My husband's grandfather married his college friends sister in law in 1940.
His Rabbi told him that a girl who has Shomer Shabbos family was a good enough reason to go out for ice cream and see if he likes her.

Last edited by keym on Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:53 pm

My grandmother A"H told me that in Brooklyn of the '40's, she was constantly besieged with Shidduch offers. There weren't enough frum girls for the guys who wanted a Shomer Shabbos home. (and she was pretty and smart too Smile

).

And we're talking all types. She was from a Chassidish family in Czekoslovakia. She was suggested shidduchim to boys from yekke, litvish, etc...all backgrounds.

Married my grandfather - above mentioned Oberland Hungarian but Chassidish lifestyle, which was most similar to her own.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:53 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

I hope I'm getting this right...

I think when people talk about "litvish" they generally mean "Ashkenazi Jewry". Ashkenazi Jewry would probably be called "Just Plain Frum" today, except that there just weren't that many in Europe who remained frum. Just plain frum predates Chassidus and all the other movements, although different kehillos had different minhagim.

There were other movements that started in Europe besides Chassidus. R' Shamshon Rafael Hirsch started the "Torah im derech eretz" movement in Germany. R' Yisroel Salanter started the mussar movement. There was the Slabodka and Novardik mussar movements. And R' Chaim Volozhin opened Volozhin yeshivah to strengthen Torah learning in a more organized fashion (this is not in historical order).

Generally speaking, those that attached themselves to one of these movements remained frum, very few of the "plain frum" Jews remained frum.

So most of the people who identify as "litvish" today and are FFB are generally descendants of one of these groups, I think (and many are descendants of Chassidus as well).

Mommyg8

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:55 pm

keym wrote:

I have heard many people of American background say that their grandparents/great grandparents married because "they were both shomer Shabbos". It wasn't so easy to find!

zaq

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 1:57 pm

Yekkes are not Litvaks, period. Parts of Poland were in the Lithuanian sphere of influence and looked to the rabbanim of Lithuania for guidance, and the people who lived in these areas were considered Litvaks, not Poles, Jewishly speaking. Yekkes were NEVER considered Litvaks and they have quite different minhagim.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 2:00 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

I actually would love to know more about the differences in the Litvish world in terms of the different derachim of learning/yeshivos.
What are the differences between Slabodka, Mir, Brisk etc. ?

In Europe there were real differences in derech. Like many things, 100 years later things have gotten watered down a bit Smile

. Slabodka doesn't really learn mussar anymore, though they started as a mussar yeshivah. Mir is not exactly the same it was in Europe either.

Brisk is distinct and is considered the "elite" of Litvish yeshivos. Brisk has it's own unique derech, which is mostly based on pure halachah and chumros (I was reading about Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik, who is of course a Brisker einikel, and I was fascinated how similar his philosophy was to Brisk).

Briskers are generally known to have more chumros than others.

The two "new" yeshivos, I think, that started in the U.S. are Chofetz Chaim and BMG. Each with their own unique derech, etc.

keym

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 2:01 pm

My husband said something interesting the other day.
Between 1880 and 1910, many Rabbis that came to America to all those random far-flung places were mostly talmidim of R Yitzchok Elchonon Spector Rav in Kovno.
(If you read Full Harvest)
So the Rabbis establishing communities in Chicago, Minneapolis, Detroit, St Louis, Atlanta were actually litvaks.

Chayalle

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 2:07 pm

zaq wrote:

True, but today, in these times, there are many yekkes learning in Litvish yeshivos, since there are no yekke yeshivos. Yekkes who go to Litvish yeshivos typically marry Litvish girls. And Litvish yeshiva boys marry yekke girls.

DH's grandparents, as I mentioned, were Litvish from Brisk and Mir. Of their 9 children B"AH, 6 married yekkes.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jan 15 2021, 2:08 pm

Many of the litvish people living in the US today are, as PinkFridge and keym said, descendants of people who came here before World War II, and many before World War I.

Since there was no real Chassidish infrastructure here, the boys who remained frum went to "regular" yeshivos and became litvish. Some kept their old minhagim, but many didn't.

I think many of us have Chassidish/yekkish ancestors. Many may have come from "litvish" areas such as Russia or Lithuania, but many didn't.