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Do masks save lives?
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amother
Oak


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:21 am
To those saying it's obvious that masks work, a simple question.

Why were masks never advised before covid? China implemented masks around 20 years ago. The US published study after study after study showing that masks do not prevent the spread of viruses.

What specific property has been found in covid19 that causes masks to prevent it from spreading, but not any other virus?

There's a reason that there is no scientific consensus that masks prevent the spread of covid. It's because the science doesn't support it.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:37 am
amother [ Oak ] wrote:
To those saying it's obvious that masks work, a simple question.

Why were masks never advised before covid? China implemented masks around 20 years ago. The US published study after study after study showing that masks do not prevent the spread of viruses.

What specific property has been found in covid19 that causes masks to prevent it from spreading, but not any other virus?

There's a reason that there is no scientific consensus that masks prevent the spread of covid. It's because the science doesn't support it.

You mean the why didn't we wear masks to prevent things like common colds or the flu? Because the risk was not large enough to warrant it. Not because masks do not reduce the spread of such illnesses.

BTW, some Asian countries mandated masks before covid to reduce the spread of other respiratory diseases, so your claim that mask-wearing is an unprecedented policy is not true.

Now let me ask you something I asked upthread but to which I received no reply:

How do you think covid spreads?


Last edited by DrMom on Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:38 am
For all those claiming CA rules are the proof as why SD and masks don't work, I have a bridge to sell you too.
I live here and we are in a huge surge. Worse than NY was last March according to some statistics I read. Hospitals are FULL. No ICU beds. They turned gift shops and some other rooms into patient rooms due to lack of space. And they opened tent hospitals in parking lots.
Why are we in such a surge when we have such crazy rules here? Because people don't follow them. Because they are not enforced. You can have the strictest rules imaginable but if people still have massive parties, have Shabbos meals with guests, get together for play dates.... Yeah, all the rules will not help. Our stores REQUIRE masks but people wear it under their nose, take it off when they think no one is looking... And stores are afraid to kick someone out. We have a massive homeless population that doesn't wear masks but enter stores and panhandle etc. (our government refuses to do anything real about the homeless people... They give them motel rooms that they trash and refuse to leave, they won't force people into shelters, violence goes unchecked...long discussion for a different time.).

My neighbors are a reason why COVID-19 is an issue. One had shabbos meals out a lot, play dates, didn't wear masks well. Well, they got it. The other one had huge parties, shabbos meals etc. not at all social distanced and no masks in sight. One of them got mad at me when I asked him to please wear a mask as he was 2 feet away from me.

It feels like we are the only ones trying. No play dates, no guests over, always wear masks out of our apartment, no shul for 10 months, no camp last summer.
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:42 am
amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:
For all those claiming CA rules are the proof as why SD and masks don't work, I have a bridge to sell you too.
I live here and we are in a huge surge. Worse than NY was last March according to some statistics I read. Hospitals are FULL. No ICU beds. They turned gift shops and some other rooms into patient rooms due to lack of space. And they opened tent hospitals in parking lots.
Why are we in such a surge when we have such crazy rules here? Because people don't follow them. Because they are not enforced. You can have the strictest rules imaginable but if people still have massive parties, have Shabbos meals with guests, get together for play dates.... Yeah, all the rules will not help. Our stores REQUIRE masks but people wear it under their nose, take it off when they think no one is looking... And stores are afraid to kick someone out. We have a massive homeless population that doesn't wear masks but enter stores and panhandle etc. (our government refuses to do anything real about the homeless people... They give them motel rooms that they trash and refuse to leave, they won't force people into shelters, violence goes unchecked...long discussion for a different time.).

My neighbors are a reason why COVID-19 is an issue. One had shabbos meals out a lot, play dates, didn't wear masks well. Well, they got it. The other one had huge parties, shabbos meals etc. not at all social distanced and no masks in sight. One of them got mad at me when I asked him to please wear a mask as he was 2 feet away from me.

It feels like we are the only ones trying. No play dates, no guests over, always wear masks out of our apartment, no shul for 10 months, no camp last summer.


THANK YOU!!! We also live in California and people are breaking the rules right and left (thankfully not so much the Jewish community where we are). I so wish that the rules here would actually be enforced. I feel like we would be in such a better position if people were really following the official policies.

I also wonder if the rules being so strict for do long has meant that when it really matters (like now), people are just too worn out to do everything.

www.sfgate.com/bayarea/amp/Cal.....1.php
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smss




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:50 am
I can't read this whole thread but:

Public health measures are never black and white, they work 100% or they're useless. It's about RISK REDUCTION.

Yes, OF COURSE covering your mouth and nose will help prevent you spreading a respiratory virus. Because of aerosolized transmission, a mask won't necessarily protect you MUCH from other unmasked people, but can still help because it reduces the viral load you get.

Masks help, social distancing helps, opening windows and ventilating helps, hand washing helps, minimizing how often you go out helps, minimizing social encounters to a "bubble" helps. The more of these things you can do, the more they will help to control the spread of this virus that killed more people in the US just last week than the entire 2019-20 flu season did.

Saving one life is like saving the world.

Pikuach nefesh comes before EVERYTHING.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:51 am
DrMom wrote:
You mean the why didn't we wear masks to prevent things like common colds or the flu? Because the risk was not large enough to warrant it. Not because masks do not reduce the spread of such illnesses.

BTW, some Asian countries mandated masks before covid to reduce the spread of other respiratory diseases, so your claim that mask-wearing is an unprecedented policy is not true.

Now let me ask you something I asked upthread but to which I received no reply:

How do you think covid spreads?


Perhaps you confused me with someone else, I didn't say it was unprecedented. I said exactly that, China implemented mask wearing 20 years ago, in response to their earlier SARS epidemic. That's the reason the matter was studied to death here.

To answer your question. Covid spreads via aerosolized droplets that are several times small than the smallest holes in the best masks. What we know is that heavy droplets fall, while the smaller, aerosolized covid droplets linger in the air for longer and are more likely to infect someone else.

It's believed that the holes in masks "slice" the virus into smaller particles, thus making it *more* likely that the virus lingers in the air.

There is also the issue of people irl not using a mask the way it's used in a sterile environment. People touch both sides of the mask, drop in purse or pocket, re-wear in different environments without washing, etc.

I'll repeat what I said before. There is not a single study that conclusively shows masks work. There are many that show they don't.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:54 am
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
THANK YOU!!! We also live in California and people are breaking the rules right and left (thankfully not so much the Jewish community where we are). I so wish that the rules here would actually be enforced. I feel like we would be in such a better position if people were really following the official policies.

I also wonder if the rules being so strict for do long has meant that when it really matters (like now), people are just too worn out to do everything.

www.sfgate.com/bayarea/amp/Cal.....1.php


Yes, part of the issue is that the rules never "let up". Even in the summer it was rough with most places to go still closed (museums, libraries, aquariums, amusement parks...). 10 MONTHS OF THIS. So people stopped caring.
And where I live frum people are breaking it too... And then we got calls asking why we won't return to shul...
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amother
Oak


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:56 am
Also, it makes zero sense that people with immunity need to wear a mask. That's solely because the government doesn't believe it can trust individuals to do the right thing.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 1:09 am
amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:
For all those claiming CA rules are the proof as why SD and masks don't work, I have a bridge to sell you too.
I live here and we are in a huge surge. Worse than NY was last March according to some statistics I read. Hospitals are FULL. No ICU beds. They turned gift shops and some other rooms into patient rooms due to lack of space. And they opened tent hospitals in parking lots.
Why are we in such a surge when we have such crazy rules here? Because people don't follow them. Because they are not enforced. You can have the strictest rules imaginable but if people still have massive parties, have Shabbos meals with guests, get together for play dates.... Yeah, all the rules will not help. Our stores REQUIRE masks but people wear it under their nose, take it off when they think no one is looking... And stores are afraid to kick someone out. We have a massive homeless population that doesn't wear masks but enter stores and panhandle etc. (our government refuses to do anything real about the homeless people... They give them motel rooms that they trash and refuse to leave, they won't force people into shelters, violence goes unchecked...long discussion for a different time.).

My neighbors are a reason why COVID-19 is an issue. One had shabbos meals out a lot, play dates, didn't wear masks well. Well, they got it. The other one had huge parties, shabbos meals etc. not at all social distanced and no masks in sight. One of them got mad at me when I asked him to please wear a mask as he was 2 feet away from me.

It feels like we are the only ones trying. No play dates, no guests over, always wear masks out of our apartment, no shul for 10 months, no camp last summer.

Florida is open as well (minus the homeless which I am not sure they have such a big problem with), people are partying and living life yet they dont have the problems CA has so not sure what CA is doing wrong. Did your governor ban any life saving methods like hcq or other medication that we know works for covid?

And btw, Biden plans to open the borders so be prepared for an invasion of illegal aliens about to flood California (and I am assuming other borders as well). Thousands of people are already heading to America, not all of them are masked and who knows what their covid status is like. Good luck with that CA and you can thank democrats for voting for Biden if things get worse (and if Biden has a plan to house these illegal aliens then he should be using the money to house citizens first but I guess thats not a right for American citizen, only illegal aliens)-- https://www.theblaze.com/news/.....X2qT8
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Frumme




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 1:14 am
amother [ Gold ] wrote:
If the mask companies are only writing it because they assume that people dont wear the mask correctly then they would write that the mask only works when worn correctly (and if its faulty production then they should be sued if it really would have worked). But that is not the case, and they are not writing that because the masks are placebos and dont work.
Surgeons dont wear a mask for corovavirus related purposes, they have been wearing masks even before covid and will presumably wear a mask after covid as well so its not comparable.
And between the strictest state of California and the least restrictive state of Florida, we can see that masks are not relevant and dont work. California has lockdowns and restrictions and masks and their case rates are going up while their hospitals are overflowing to the point where people who are coding are not being taken to the hospital. While Florida is business as usual with none of these issues so no, masks dont work and are in fact placebos.


So you would agree with this: surgeons wear masks in order to protect themselves and others from airborne bacterial and viral transmission. Correct? Is the coronavirus not an airborne virus that has been proven to spread through droplets in the air, as caused as when one speaks, yells, sings, yawns, or sneezes? Then would a mask not prevent the transmission of coronavirus from one person to the next, the same as any other airborne bacterial or viral infection?

Also, I would like to see sources for your claims about Florida. I live in Florida and I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. We are not the "least restrictive" state (I am not sure where you got that impression) and certainly we are not "back to business as usual." Most businesses still require masks, salons require appointments, doctor offices require people to wait in their car and to be called in, schools all require masks unless zooming in, there are surges and ICUs at max capacity ( https://www.local10.com/news/l.....says/ ) etc etc. It's possible that it seems like "business as usual" because in general things in Florida are more spread out, it's easier to social distance than in NYC, we're not all staying inside because of snowy weather etc etc. The fact is that things are not back to normal. Yes we don't have lockdowns right now like California so I guess we're "less restrictive" in that way, but we still have plenty of people getting sick and hospitals at capacity, so, so much for being less restrictive....
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 1:35 am
amother [ Oak ] wrote:
Perhaps you confused me with someone else, I didn't say it was unprecedented. I said exactly that, China implemented mask wearing 20 years ago, in response to their earlier SARS epidemic. That's the reason the matter was studied to death here.

To answer your question. Covid spreads via aerosolized droplets that are several times small than the smallest holes in the best masks. What we know is that heavy droplets fall, while the smaller, aerosolized covid droplets linger in the air for longer and are more likely to infect someone else.

It's believed that the holes in masks "slice" the virus into smaller particles, thus making it *more* likely that the virus lingers in the air.

There is also the issue of people irl not using a mask the way it's used in a sterile environment. People touch both sides of the mask, drop in purse or pocket, re-wear in different environments without washing, etc.

I'll repeat what I said before. There is not a single study that conclusively shows masks work. There are many that show they don't.

I will ignore the part about people not wearing masks correctly (obviously anything used incorrectly is less effective than something used correctly, so that is not an argument).

As for the rest: Covid is for the most part NOT aerosolized. It spreads mainly through respiratory droplets that are large enough to be blocked by a surgical mask.

Some small amount can also be aerosolized, which is why SD indoors is crucial.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/.....50018

As for your claim that no study has shown masks reduce the spread of covid, that is simply false. I do not see how anybody who actually looked into this issue can say that honesty.

Here is just one example from the Mayo Clinic:

https://www.king5.com/mobile/a.....f0373

I think this study is very thorough in that the researchers measured the transmission of droplets, and also the study does not rely on self-reporting of mask-wearing (which is unreliable).

It is far from the only study coming to the conclusion that masks reduce the spread of covid.

And touching your mask doesn’t reduce its effectiveness unless you poke a hole in it.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 5:30 am
amother [ Oak ] wrote:
Also, it makes zero sense that people with immunity need to wear a mask. That's solely because the government doesn't believe it can trust individuals to do the right thing.


The thing is, obviously, you cannot trust people to do the right thing. To come home from a vacation and not self quarantine for 14 days, it's rare that anyone actually does that. People wear masks to keep their beard cozy. People sneeze in your face. People go out even when they are not feeling well, but not sick enough to want to stay home. Some people are asymptomatic, but carriers.

As far as "the right thing", if wearing masks and SD is not the right thing, then what is?

You have your mind made up as to what doesn't work, so let's hear your ideas about what WILL work.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 5:53 am
good question: how do the mask wearing regs jibe with open borders? They do not seem to be testing for covid upon entry...?
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 5:57 am
imasinger wrote:
Could you link any? That's pretty hard to control accurately, as self reporting is notoriously faulty.

Of course there are no random controlled studies during this pandemic with the only isolated variable being mask wearing to ascertain if masks help on a community level. I was just pointing out that the studies you were mentioning are not really beneficial to this discussion, as the results possibly are the same with all the other strategies independent of mask wearing.

The only possible study is the one from Denmark which was only discussing personal protection from masks, and that one found no statistical significance in reduction of covid-19 among mask wearers. Did not address if the masks helped others.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 6:23 am
amother [ Gold ] wrote:
...Biden plans to open the borders so be prepared for an invasion of illegal aliens about to flood California (and I am assuming other borders as well). Thousands of people are already heading to America, not all of them are masked and who knows what their covid status is like.

This makes very little policy sense to me as well (but I won't launch into a wider discussion, since I do not want to bring unnecessarily political views into a thread that is not in the Politics Forum).

Re: covid and masks specifically, I think it is entirely contradictory to mandate masks for people engaging in interstate travel (a policy Biden wants to enact in his first 10 days in office) and at the same time bring millions of unvetted people across international borders.
https://www.wcvb.com/article/b.....8782#
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 7:54 am
amother [ Oak ] wrote:
Also, it makes zero sense that people with immunity need to wear a mask. That's solely because the government doesn't believe it can trust individuals to do the right thing.


Of course individuals can't be trusted to do the right thing. If nothing else, that's one of the biggest lessons this pandemic has brought to the forefront.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 7:55 am
amother [ Papaya ] wrote:
We are anti masks and my kids have not had a sick visit(or a well visit) since March
.
You're welcome!
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 8:19 am
amother [ Oak ] wrote:
Also, it makes zero sense that people with immunity need to wear a mask. That's solely because the government doesn't believe it can trust individuals to do the right thing.


Should we wear t shirts that say, don't worry, I still have antibodies?
Also, I daven I still have them, but I don't know. I was last tested 6 weeks ago and by then they were 8 months old.
When they start mass testing T cells I'll be first in line.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 8:21 am
DrMom wrote:
This makes very little policy sense to me as well (but I won't launch into a wider discussion, since I do not want to bring unnecessarily political views into a thread that is not in the Politics Forum).

Re: covid and masks specifically, I think it is entirely contradictory to mandate masks for people engaging in interstate travel (a policy Biden wants to enact in his first 10 days in office) and at the same time bring millions of unvetted people across international borders.
https://www.wcvb.com/article/b.....8782#


What's the chiddush with masks re travel?
But science goes out the window when it comes to emotion and social goals, like the summer protests being more important than SD.
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Jenmom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 9:27 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Do you believe that masks really saves lives?

Please no bashing, I wear mine but I don’t believe it saves lives at all.
I wear it solely because we are forced to.
This is just an interesting conversation.


No. I eventually went to look for any scientific research done on it. The only research done was on influenza and masks a few years ago, and they found cloth masks do nothing, and surgical masks only stop about 10%-50% of cases at the very best.
I still wear them because I don't believe in causing a scene at the grocery store. It's just not worth getting in a fight over.
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