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Men - women office dynamics
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 7:46 am
Unless you are the one being an outrageous flirt, this is almost always not the woman's fault.

Men will take a "Hello" and think "She's really into me!" Give them a smile, they'll take a mile.

It doesn't matter if you are frum, secular, or anything in between. As long as men see women as prey, they will pursue. It's a game, and it makes them feel strong and powerful.

Just ask any Hollywood starlet about what it takes to get ahead in the industry. She could be the most talented actress in the universe, but the men around her are still going to be inappropriate and treat her like she's only good for one thing.

Because 99% of the fun is in the chase, once they've had what they're after, they'll usually get bored and move on to someone else. You are no longer attractive to them.

If you think I'm over reacting, ask yourself "Do I feel safe walking alone in the dark? Would you let your daughter walk alone in the dark?... Do men feel safe walking alone in the dark?"

There are predators, and there are prey. We have to live our lives in a state of high alert - and it is exhausting.
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 8:06 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
Unless you are the one being an outrageous flirt, this is almost always not the woman's fault.

Men will take a "Hello" and think "She's really into me!" Give them a smile, they'll take a mile.

It doesn't matter if you are frum, secular, or anything in between. As long as men see women as prey, they will pursue. It's a game, and it makes them feel strong and powerful.

Just ask any Hollywood starlet about what it takes to get ahead in the industry. She could be the most talented actress in the universe, but the men around her are still going to be inappropriate and treat her like she's only good for one thing.

Because 99% of the fun is in the chase, once they've had what they're after, they'll usually get bored and move on to someone else. You are no longer attractive to them.

If you think I'm over reacting, ask yourself "Do I feel safe walking alone in the dark? Would you let your daughter walk alone in the dark?... Do men feel safe walking alone in the dark?"

There are predators, and there are prey. We have to live our lives in a state of high alert - and it is exhausting.


I disagree entirely.
I don't feel safe walking alone in SOME places in the dark (my neighborhood is just fine), but that's because there are a minority of creepy men who hang around after dark looking for trouble.

The standard men in my office are not looking to hunt me, and I see them managing to communicate just fine with the other women on the team. Yes there are some flirtations going on, but they are 5-10% of the team, and the women are just as active there as the men.

In other words, if you are drop dead gorgeous or very flirty, yes SOME men at the office (the flirty ones) will flirt with you. If you are regular attractive and regular social, you can work for years without having any flirting issues. It's not the same at all like walking alone at night. The office isn't a back alley in a bad part of town.
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 9:40 am
amother [ Amber ] wrote:
In the real world the last name thing is outlandishly weird. And men do not keep flirting if you give them a little bit of ice to back off.

I have seen men & women do the work wife- work husband thing and it was very uncomfortable as an observer to watch.

I felt bad for the real spouses.


It's very interesting to me that everyone feels if you give ice they will back off. This totally did not work with me in experiences I had with 2 men. I was very cold and abrupt, and they just didn't get it!
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amother
Plum


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 9:44 am
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
It's very interesting to me that everyone feels if you give ice they will back off. This totally did not work with me in experiences I had with 2 men. I was very cold and abrupt, and they just didn't get it!

Well, was this in a frum or secular office?
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amother
Rose


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 9:49 am
It’s your responsibility to make sure to put all boundaries in place. Yes it’s their responsibility to do it for themselves but you are not responsible and can’t control them. Men are men and many will flirt or be friendly and maybe they enjoy female company or whatever the reason. Don’t chit chat, ask or say anything personal, use first names, be alone in a room, and remove yourself immediately from a position that doesn’t seem right. I am grateful to my frum boss that he puts some of these basic rules in the hr manual and reviews this at our annual events!
There is an english Sefer on this. Forgot the name.
It is very easy to cross the line if you don’t have clear boundaries!!
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 9:53 am
I work as an assistant and while me and my boss are in friendly terms, none is flirty ever. He talks about his kids and I talk about mine, all very respectfully.

You can be friendly and not flirty, it depends on the tone you set and the tone of the office. Most people at my office are married and older, it's not a flirty type of place.
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amother
Silver


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 9:54 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
Unless you are the one being an outrageous flirt, this is almost always not the woman's fault.

Men will take a "Hello" and think "She's really into me!" Give them a smile, they'll take a mile.

It doesn't matter if you are frum, secular, or anything in between. As long as men see women as prey, they will pursue. It's a game, and it makes them feel strong and powerful.

Just ask any Hollywood starlet about what it takes to get ahead in the industry. She could be the most talented actress in the universe, but the men around her are still going to be inappropriate and treat her like she's only good for one thing.

Because 99% of the fun is in the chase, once they've had what they're after, they'll usually get bored and move on to someone else. You are no longer attractive to them.

If you think I'm over reacting, ask yourself "Do I feel safe walking alone in the dark? Would you let your daughter walk alone in the dark?... Do men feel safe walking alone in the dark?"

There are predators, and there are prey. We have to live our lives in a state of high alert - and it is exhausting.


This feels very adversarial. The men I know get up, go to work and try to do a good job. They're not leering at their female co-workers, and they're not going to pounce. They just want to do their jobs as well as they can.

I'm not saying that creeps don't exist, only that most people have respectful relationships at work, and women aren't living in fear.
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small bean




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 9:55 am
I've never had any issues.

I think the whole idea of last name only, will only make sense if everyone goes by last names, like guy on guy and girl on girl also. If it's only by guy vs girl, it makes the whole thing very uncomfortable.

I always go by my first name, I'm not even sure how many people consciously know my last name. Once a frum guy from another company emailed me and 2 guys, he wrote Dear Joe, Jim and Mrs. X. I reaponded that it's extremely uncomfortable to point out my gender like that and in the future please address me by my first name, like he does to the guys.

I do converse about things other than business. I'm extremely passionate about many topics qnd I'm treated like the guys.
I was once told point blank by a male that he was uncomfortable hiring a certain frum women because of the way she dresses and behaves. That was uncomfortable, but I think he really forgot that I was female also. I'm the only girl doing what I do in my company and those that we interact with, I think my gender does not come much into anyone's thoughts.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 10:03 am
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
Maybe small offices can have their own policies, but the standard in corporate America is to use first names. An employee who insists on being referred to by her last name would be considered downright bizarre.

The vast majority of work interactions are totally professional. If there's a certain buzz in the air with a particular co-worker, you deal with it.

I think the problem arises when people who have been in gender-segregated environments their whole lives are suddenly put into mixed situations and don't know how to act. The majority quickly figure out what's appropriate. A few need to be taught.
.
But insisting on last names or other measures is just kicking the can down the road. It's not enough if the underlying issue isn't resolved. At some point, you need to learn to work with other people and not to see them as zex objects.


Or Duh,.. maybe the obvious

In any area of yiddishkeit one cant have everything you need to prioritize..

If you work in a hospital 15 hours a day and you are diabetic you CAN'T KEEP EVERY CHUMRA IN KASRUS

Maybe you need to send your husband to work so you can stay home and be a housewife and be mekayim Col Hakvuda

If that isnt possible then obviously you need to learn how to integrate in the workplace without making Orthodox jews seem weird and causing a possible Chilul H
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amother
Plum


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 10:05 am
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
This feels very adversarial. The men I know get up, go to work and try to do a good job. They're not leering at their female co-workers, and they're not going to pounce. They just want to do their jobs as well as they can.

I'm not saying that creeps don't exist, only that most people have respectful relationships at work, and women aren't living in fear.

Exactly. To add, when I was young and single I had other single male co-workers express interest. I was careful to give off very business like vibes only, try to always be busy with work and not hang around the break room, plus at some point they realized I was very religious (not just a conservative girl who liked wearing skirts, lol) and it petered out.
I've only come across a handful of married lecherous guys, and usually HR catches up with them pretty quickly.

Now, there are always a few "schmoozers" who love to talk to anyone who will give them the time of day and don't pick up social cues or body language that the other person is trying to cut things short. This doesn't mean they are trying to flirt. These can be men or women, but often it's men. You have to learn how to speak up nicely to them.
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 10:36 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Now, there are always a few "schmoozers" who love to talk to anyone who will give them the time of day and don't pick up social cues or body language that the other person is trying to cut things short. This doesn't mean they are trying to flirt. These can be men or women, but often it's men. You have to learn how to speak up nicely to them.


This. I have two 'schmoozers' at my current place of work, and during break time if I see them making coffee or whatever, I try to make myself scarce, because I know if they start schmoozing it will be very difficult for me to escape.

They are not flirting though, they just like to talk. And talk and talk. They do the exact same thing to male coworkers. I wonder how many people here confuse over-friendly over talkative men with flirts.
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 10:39 am
small bean wrote:
I've never had any issues.

I think the whole idea of last name only, will only make sense if everyone goes by last names, like guy on guy and girl on girl also. If it's only by guy vs girl, it makes the whole thing very uncomfortable.

I always go by my first name, I'm not even sure how many people consciously know my last name. Once a frum guy from another company emailed me and 2 guys, he wrote Dear Joe, Jim and Mrs. X. I reaponded that it's extremely uncomfortable to point out my gender like that and in the future please address me by my first name, like he does to the guys.

.


This. I hadn't thought about that angle, but yes, it makes it very awkward and s@xualized if men call each other by first names but call women Mrs. X, and vice versa.

I can't imagine how weird it would be to get an email addressed to Joe, Jim and Mrs. X. In cases where most of the office members are one gender, say men, it could make the woman feel out of the loop, not really part of the team.

If you insist on Mr. and Mrs. (and again, I think that can only work in frum places) - then everyone should be Mr. and Mrs. to each other, even when a man addresses a man or a woman talks to a woman.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 10:42 am
amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:
I wonder how many people here confuse over-friendly over talkative men with flirts.

Agree with this. I think (as someone said previously) often people who come from very segregated backgrounds sometimes have a hard time differentiating between the 2, though with a bit more life experience most people will figure it out and learn how to handle it.
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Crookshanks




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 10:45 am
The English sefer someone referenced up thread is called 9-5.
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 11:33 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
Well, was this in a frum or secular office?


Frum. It was very obvious to the other people working there as well, so it wasn't just me overthinking a guy being friendly.
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 11:34 am
I love the book "Making It All Work" about women in the workplace. It's very interesting and has a lot of practical advice.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 11:46 am
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
Frum. It was very obvious to the other people working there as well, so it wasn't just me overthinking a guy being friendly.

That's what I figured. Sometimes in a frum office people get overly friendly while a secular one there is more of a natural barrier set in place plus sometimes frum guys need to adjust to learning how to view frum women as business colleagues.
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 12:06 pm
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
That's what I figured. Sometimes in a frum office people get overly friendly while a secular one there is more of a natural barrier set in place plus sometimes frum guys need to adjust to learning how to view frum women as business colleagues.


That's a good point.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 1:10 pm
amother [ Pink ] wrote:
You've got to know how to be a little snobby when working in mixed offices.

I'm the last thing to a snob and had to work on this. It pains me when I have to use this attitude to ensure nobody comes too close. But I've got to do the right thing.


No need for snobbishness. That's counterproductive when you have to work with people. Just be polite and professional, not chummy. You don't discuss issues that are not work-related, you don't linger after meetings, and you treat everyone the same.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2021, 1:23 pm
I'm getting the sense that these issues are worse in frum offices which is kind of strange.
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