Is dropping community externals considered lowering standard

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amother

Brown

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 12:47 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Fine Europeans today wear denim too. It's an outdated outlook.

I'm obviously not talking about European people, but about fine European clothing.

amother

Coffee

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 1:19 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

I'm obviously not talking about European people, but about fine European clothing.

Obviously those communities consider it "trashy" to quote your words, but the question is why.
Even royalty wears it, on appropriate occasions. So choose when accordingly (like girls in camp or going on a hike) but the material by itself is acceptable by classy royalty nowadays (and has been for awhile) so that isn't much of an argument against it.

amother

Brown

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 1:34 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Well see the overall difference of the images of these 2 communities.
There is an overall more modest look when dressing more refined.

amother

Coffee

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 1:46 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Well see the overall difference of the images of these 2 communities.
There is an overall more modest look when dressing more refined.

But that is assuming denim is not modest. I disagree with that premise.
Anyway, the look you are describing is more formal, not necessarily more refined. Especially if the argument is that denim is casual. Just because you dress more formally doesn't mean you dress in a more refined way.
That is your personal opinion which many don't share.

zaq

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 5:10 pm

I fail to see why denim is trashy. Denim was created to be strong, durable , and hard working—which it is. It was never intended to be elegant—but the opposite of elegant is not “trashy.” Are you such snobs that you consider doing manual work trashy? Then you spit in the faces of generations of honest working people.

You know they had a rather ugly revolution in France when honest hardworking people got fed up with a so-called aristocracy that thought it was better than anyone else because it dressed in silk and never got its hands dirty. Ditto in Russia. Just saying. Wearing silk instead of denim doesn’t make you a superior life form.

amother

Peach

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 6:54 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Well see the overall difference of the images of these 2 communities.
There is an overall more modest look when dressing more refined.

No not really. But sure you can tell yourself that if it makes you feel good.

zaq

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:39 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This whole denim business doesn't make any sense to me either.

A woman once told me that she bought denim dresses for her 5 girls. She then decided to have 'mesiras nefesh' and throw them in the bin.

Its definitely not an act of mesiras nefesh, it is 100% Baal tashchis...

Seriously. She could have given them to Goodwill, or even cut them up and made them into potholders, placemats, or drawstring bags for protecting shoes, holding lego or other small game pieces, and a thousand other uses. If you can wear shoes made of the hide of a tref animal, you should be able to protect those shoes with a bag made of a "tref" fabric.

zaq

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:41 pm

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

I personally find it distasteful to consider working clothes or similar styles to be "lowering standards". It seems elitist and arrogant.

It seems that way because it is.

zaq

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:47 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

In fact if anything jeans are more Jewish, having been invented by Levi Strauss. 😁

Good one!

zaq

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:49 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I don't get this whole princess/queen thing.
When I don't need to wash my toilets, cook my family's food, run carpool, or work a 9-5 job, then we will talk about dressing like a princess.

Hear, hear!

zaq

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:56 pm

Again, don't conflate "elegance" with "refinement." A straw hat and peasant-style skirt and blouse are not precisely elegant, but there's nothing unrefined about them. "Fine European clothing"--if ever an expression reeked of snobbery, this is it. Being made in a sweatshop in Milan, Paris or Geneva doesn't confer any greater "refinement" than being made in a sweatshop on Seventh Avenue.

zaq

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:58 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Fine Europeans today wear denim too. It's an outdated outlook.

And a dowdy one, too.

naturalmom5

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:58 pm

zaq wrote:

Hear, hear!

Exactly...

I was also fed that bas Melech garbage when I was first came to Lakewood

Then I saw a very choshuv RY's daughter working as a cashier in a supermarket

Some bas melech..

zaq

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 1:21 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Exactly...

I was also fed that bas Melech garbage when I was first came to Lakewood

Then I saw a very choshuv RY's daughter working as a cashier in a supermarket

Some bas melech..

As I see it: Kol kvudah bat melech pnimah. Pnimah--with a mapik in the heh and pronounced pniMAH--means "her pnim", her inside. The princess's glory is within: it's part of her DNA, it's what she is, regardless of what she's wearing or what she does for a living. She doesn't stop being a princess if she's kidnapped in chains and forced to muck out horse stalls, and she doesn't stop being a princess if she wears denim.

PinkFridge

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 2:46 pm

I'm sorry that I started the whole tangent.

GLUE

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 7:50 pm

I had a teacher who said that denim was for the lower class people and also in the 60's the hippies were it as their uniform. Is that who you want to be like?

I had another teacher(different school)who said denim skirts are fine as long as they are not tight,has a zipper in the front,and full of holes.

Dos anyone remember the Camp Shira denim skirts?

amother

Coffee

Tue, Feb 16 2021, 8:05 pm

GLUE wrote:

I had a teacher who said that denim was for the lower class people and also in the 60's the hippies were it as their uniform. Is that who you want to be like?

Lol, I always found that tznius lecturers/workshop people are living in the past. It's not the 1960s anymore and there haven't been any hippies in a few decades.
It is just plain out of touch + the inability to move past certain "rules" that have expired. While jeans/denim may have symbolized a certain counterculture attitude 50 years ago, that just isn't the case anymore.

Mommyg8

Wed, Feb 17 2021, 6:47 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

A little late to the party but I wanted to weigh in on the denim issue... I grew up in the 1970's and 80's and I also kept hearing all about the problem with denim. I really fought this "rule" because I like denim a lot (come to think of it - I haven't seen any comfy denim skirts in a while, are they out of style?)

When I questioned this rule I was told that it's too similar to the "hippy culture". To clarify, the problem was NOT that farmers wear it - farming is a legitimate way to earn a living and so is a cashier, naturalmom5 - it was what it supposedly represented. I guess they meant that it represented a certain looseness of living - everything goes culture - which we do not agree with. But when I was growing up, I didn't see it that way - I just liked denim because it was so comfortable and easy to wear.

I had my revenge - as soon as I got married and was out of school and shidduchim I bought everything denim - I went to town. My poor firstborn was dressed in denim as often as I could put my hands on a cute baby denim outfit....

So that's MY take.

amother

Coffee

Wed, Feb 17 2021, 7:39 am

Lol, mommyg8, I am a few years younger, but pretty similar experience. At least, when I went to camp/seminary.
My oot BY didn't touch the topic of denim, they had bigger battles to fight. Except when they brought in NY charismatic tznius lecturers (though it usually backfired on them because it got the girls all worked up).
Anyway you can find very nice, classy denim skirts still. I am wearing one from Dillards today, actually. No zippers, holes, fading. Not tight!

small bean

Wed, Feb 17 2021, 7:49 am

I grew up in lakewood in the 90s and everyone wore denim in the summer. I wore all year bevause in my family we didn't have different clothes for the different seasons.

I still think denim is so easy and comfortable. My girls though never liked it.

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