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What is the difference between Mizrachi and DL?
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 10:52 am
Question in title
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 10:57 am
I don’t live in Israel and I could be completely mistaken, but Mizrachi, I imagine would be someone from Artzot Hamizrach -having minahagim, both cultural and religious which are from their land of origin, and DL is more of a Torah U’Madaah/Benei Akiva/MO haskafa-many of whom are Askenazi.

I apologize if I have misspoken and offended anyone.

ETA- I am MO, if (when!!!) I made Aliya I imagine I will be considered DL. I do not eat Kidniot on Pesach, am I will continue not to eat Kidniot, as my family is Yekke, and DH’s is Polish. I imagine most people who identify as Mizrachi do (but I really don’t know- I am just assuming and could be wrong).
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 11:08 am
"Mizrachi" used to be another word for dati leumi. In reference to one of the political parties most affiliated with religious Zionist Jews in Israel.

Today, "mizrachi" almost always refers to Jews from specific Middle Eastern Jewish communities, the ones that were established well before the influx of sephardim in the late 15th century. IOW non-sephardi middle eastern Jews.


"DL" stands for "dati leumi," literally "religious nationalist." Israelis who are frum and also Zionist. It's a catch-all for communities that really run the gamut in terms of actual religious practice. There's a common hashkafic thread, but in terms of daily life the lifestyle runs from MO lite through makpid yeshivish.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 11:45 am
What ora said. DL refers to anyone on the dati leumi spectrum, it's kind of like MO with an Israeli twist. And like MO, it goes the whole spectrum from super liberal LW to strict RW. You can be from any eida (sefaradi, ashkenazi, temaini) and be DL.

Mizrachi used to mean DL a few decades ago. The term fell out of favor for whatever reason, and became a somewhat derogatory term used by charedim to refer to the DL.

Today, the term 'mizrachi' (pronounced this time with the emphasis on the first syllable) has nothing to do with religion at all, and refers to culture/music/history that comes from the mizrach (the near east), and is mainly used to refer to North African type of culture.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 11:49 am
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

ETA- I am MO, if (when!!!) I made Aliya I imagine I will be considered DL. I do not eat Kidniot on Pesach, am I will continue not to eat Kidniot, as my family is Yekke, and DH’s is Polish. I imagine most people who identify as Mizrachi do (but I really don’t know- I am just assuming and could be wrong).


Actually, I think most DL in Israel today eat kitniyot, even the Ashkenazim.

And of course, Mizrachi and DL are not mutually exclusive terms - one refers to cultural origins and one refers to religious hashkafa. One can be both.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 12:25 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
Actually, I think most DL in Israel today eat kitniyot, even the Ashkenazim.

And of course, Mizrachi and DL are not mutually exclusive terms - one refers to cultural origins and one refers to religious hashkafa. One can be both.
Not sure why you think this but it is definitely not the case.
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 12:29 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Not sure why you think this but it is definitely not the case.


I don't know of any ashkenazi dati Leumi people who eat kitniyot.

Some will consume mei kitniyot when combined with other foods, like using sunflower oil for cooking. Not everyone holds this way, but there is room to justify it halachically.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 12:29 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Not sure why you think this but it is definitely not the case.


OK, my mistake then. Just my circles then. I think there was a rav who said that in Israel it's fine.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 12:34 pm
kitniyot rabbanim

kitniyot

Just googled quickly and these came up... haven't read them really but I just know in my circles some frum Asheknazi DL do eat kitniyot. They certainly eat things like Milky, chocolate, etc לאוכלי קטניות
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 12:36 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
OK, my mistake then. Just my circles then. I think there was a rav who said that in Israel it's fine.
Im sure there are some here and there, but definitely not all or most.
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 12:42 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
OK, my mistake then. Just my circles then. I think there was a rav who said that in Israel it's fine.


I remember reading an article that tried to argue this way. I don't remember who wrote it. Most people seemed to feel that it was an interesting arguement and they could follow the logic, but they had no intention of changing their minhag.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 1:03 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
kitniyot rabbanim

kitniyot

Just googled quickly and these came up... haven't read them really but I just know in my circles some frum Asheknazi DL do eat kitniyot. They certainly eat things like Milky, chocolate, etc לאוכלי קטניות


There is a huge difference between eating products marked KLP only for kitniyot eaters because of indiscernible,minute amounts of kitniyot (which are batel) in the product and/or because the 'problematic' ingredient is a derivative of something that some consider kitniyot (like lecithin from canola) and your statement that 'most Ashkenazim eat kitniyot'.
No mainstream Ashkenazi rabbi gives a blanket approval for Ashkenzaim to 'eat kitniyot' on Pesach.
OTOH, there are many, many DL Ashkenazi rabbis (including Rav Vitman- the Rabbi in charge of kashrut at Tnuva) who have explained the halachic intricacies that permit Ashkenazim to eat these products without being 'over' on the custom of not consuming kitniyot.
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 4:39 pm
On the original question: the old religious Zionist organization is called Mizrachi. It's the term our grandparents used. Like the old Yeshiva Mizrachi Lebonim in Brooklyn.
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 6:04 pm
I'm from a long-time Mizrachi-Hapoel Hamizrachi-American Mizrachi Women family and find it discombobulating when people say "Mizrachi" rather than "Edot Hamizrach." I guess that's why AMW changed its name to "AMIT Women."
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yihyetov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 7:29 pm
I was just wondering if someone can also please explain to me what the label "Daati Leumi Torani" means? Is that the same idea or different?
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 7:58 pm
Mizrahi references middle eastern jews, from Lebanon, Syrian, and other countries.
DL refers to zionist yehudim, most men use kippah sruga, women wear scarves mostly instead of wigs, very into making alyiah, working the land..
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turca




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 8:17 pm
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
I'm from a long-time Mizrachi-Hapoel Hamizrachi-American Mizrachi Women family and find it discombobulating when people say "Mizrachi" rather than "Edot Hamizrach." I guess that's why AMW changed its name to "AMIT Women."

American mizrachi women? What do u mean by that?
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amother
Pumpkin


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 9:14 pm
When my daughter did sherut leumi at an old age home in Bnei Brak, the old people used to refer to her as "the mizrochnikit."

But yes, Mizrahi was the name of the religious Zionist movement and later political party, so religious Zionists were identified that way. Now the term is used to refer to Jews who come from North Africa and the Middle East.

Dati Leumi covers a broad spectrum, and they don't all have the same religious standards or political affiliation. It's also not an exact match with Modern Orthodox.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 9:33 pm
amother [ Rose ] wrote:
Actually, I think most DL in Israel today eat kitniyot, even the Ashkenazim.

And of course, Mizrachi and DL are not mutually exclusive terms - one refers to cultural origins and one refers to religious hashkafa. One can be both.

מאין לך??
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Sun, Feb 14 2021, 9:40 pm
yihyetov wrote:
I was just wondering if someone can also please explain to me what the label "Daati Leumi Torani" means? Is that the same idea or different?

Dati Leumi is a broad spectrum. The ones who lean more towards charedi are "dati leumi Torani" - so they won't have TV, maybe not internet either, they might not have smartphones, their sleeves and skirts will be longer, peyot longer, they may have beards, may learn in "kollel" for a couple years after marriage, etc.

Mizrachi is a term charedim use to encompass all DL, it is considered deragatory. It originated because that is what the charedim called the eastern Jews, from Arab lands. DL is much more than that and they do not appreciate being called essentially "Sefardim," especially by people who see themselves as better than Sefardim. It is not a term used by anyone other than in a deragatory context - the Mizrachnikim are not as careful as we are, the Mizrachnikim have allowed half of Africa's non-Jews to live in Israel, the Mizrachnikim don't understand why we won't send to army....

The group itself defines as DL, religious-nationalist, and its group name (not how an individual would define him/herself but how the individual calls the group) is Tzionut Hadatit, Religious Zionism. It is an all-encompassing term which accepts anyone who is both religious and a Zionist; usually these people have a kipa sruga. Smile
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