What is the difference between Mizrachi and DL?

amother

Smokey

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 12:41 am

Elfrida wrote:

I don't know of any ashkenazi dati Leumi people who eat kitniyot.

Some will consume mei kitniyot when combined with other foods, like using sunflower oil for cooking. Not everyone holds this way, but there is room to justify it halachically.

The only Ashkenazi DL who I know who eat kitniyot are Asheknazi-born women married to Sefardic men. Smile

salt

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 1:06 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Actually, I think most DL in Israel today eat kitniyot, even the Ashkenazim.

And of course, Mizrachi and DL are not mutually exclusive terms - one refers to cultural origins and one refers to religious hashkafa. One can be both.

Of course they don't!
Some ashkenazim are married to sefaradim ('mixed' marriages), and then they may take on sefaradi minhagim, but pure ashkenazi DL's do not eat kitniyot on pesach.

etky

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 1:37 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Dati Leumi is a broad spectrum. The ones who lean more towards charedi are "dati leumi Torani" - so they won't have TV, maybe not internet either, they might not have smartphones, their sleeves and skirts will be longer, peyot longer, they may have beards, may learn in "kollel" for a couple years after marriage, etc.

Mizrachi is a term charedim use to encompass all DL, it is considered deragatory. It originated because that is what the charedim called the eastern Jews, from Arab lands. DL is much more than that and they do not appreciate being called essentially "Sefardim," especially by people who see themselves as better than Sefardim. It is not a term used by anyone other than in a deragatory context - the Mizrachnikim are not as careful as we are, the Mizrachnikim have allowed half of Africa's non-Jews to live in Israel, the Mizrachnikim don't understand why we won't send to army....

The group itself defines as DL, religious-nationalist, and its group name (not how an individual would define him/herself but how the individual calls the group) is Tzionut Hadatit, Religious Zionism. It is an all-encompassing term which accepts anyone who is both religious and a Zionist; usually these people have a kipa sruga. Smile

No, amother pumpkin is right that the term originated from the Zionist/religious orthodox Mizrachi movement that was an outgrowth of the Zionist Congress of 1902, that with the founding of the state became a political party in the Knesset from which the National Religious Party later emerged (after the union with Hapoel Mizrachi in the fifties). Among other achievements, the Mizrachi movement is responsible for the Jewish/religious character of the public realm within the State of Israel like mandatory kashrut in public institutions and shabbat observance. The name Mizrachi is pronounced with the stress on the second syllable - mizRACHi while the word "mizraCHI" refers to Jews of Arab lands.
The designation mizRACHi as referring to the movement/party of that name survives in the Israeli public realm in the name of the Mizrachi/Tefachot Bank. There is also of course the World Mizrachi movement and its HaMizrachi magazine which is still a major standard bearer of religious Zionism in Israel and around the world.
So, to answer OP's question - I would say that the term DL is a sociological term that defines a demographic group of Israeli society that is religiously observant but not haredi. As others said - that encompasses a very broad spectrum from those who keep just the very broad strokes to those who are keep an almost haredi lifestyle in terms of observance but who are Zionist in outlook. The term Mizrachi refers to the ideology that combines Zionism with Torah observance and to its associated political history and institutions. I would say that a good chunk of mainstream, middle of the road DL people at least passively uphold the ideology of the Mizrachi movement and were raised and educated in the communities, schools and youth movements that it founded and inspired. But there are other groups too who fall within the broad category of DL - like many mizrachi Jews (ironically) whose ideological home is Shas and haredi-leumi Ashkenazi groups whose ideological orientation and worldview is slightly different.

Crookshanks

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 2:11 am

This thread is so fascinating! Until I opened it I did not know that Mizrachi doesn't equal Dati Leumi anymore and that it is considered derogatory. I learned something new today!

etky

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 2:26 am

Crookshanks wrote:

This thread is so fascinating! Until I opened it I did not know that Mizrachi doesn't equal Dati Leumi anymore and that it is considered derogatory. I learned something new today!

I think it's fair to say that it does equal the classic DL ideology of a Torah infused Zionism and תורה ועבודה. However, the sociological definition of this segment of Israeli society is broader than that and encompasses other less ideological groups as well as groups with differently flavored ideologies.
The term 'mizrochnik' is a derogatory term used by haredim to show their disdain for Zionism and its "orthodox" adherents who practice what they consider to be a compromised form of mitzvah observance.

Teomima

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 2:48 am

This thread is so interesting to read.

I live in an area that is half DL, half Mizrachi, and no one would ever confuse the two. In some ways we are all on the same wavelength: modern living with traditional values. But everything else is different: manner of speech, diet, traditional family roles, nussachs, lifestyles, etc.

salt

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 5:29 am

Teomima wrote:

So do you mean you are all dati leumi when it comes to outlook to religious life - religious zionism, modern living with traditional values.
But half ashenazi and half serfardi when it comes to 'eida'?

amother

Rose

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 5:56 am

Teomima wrote:

In Israel? That is weird.
Today in Israel Mizrachi simply means your parents or grandparents came from an Arab country.
You can be totally secular and be mizrachi, or you can be DL and be mizrachi.

Very few today under the age of 50 or 60 use the term Mizrachi in its connotation of a form of hashkafa (with the pronunciation on the middle syllable).

Teomima

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 6:02 am

salt wrote:

Not exactly. There are many sefardi DL members of my community as well. And sefardi isn't the same as Mizrachi (eidot hamizrach).

Mizrachi isn't synonymous with dati, either. There are religious mizrachim and secular mizrachim. But there are shared values with the DL community. Many mizrachim in my area will have a family Shabbat meal that the adult kids will drive in for, for example.

Zionism is a common ground, with both groups serving in the army, except for some of the charedi mizrachim. Modern living as in living in completely mixed neighborhoods, secular and religious, Mizrachi and DL and everything in between side by side, use of technology, etc. Traditional values as in a very strong sense of family, raising children, working hard to support your family, etc

Teomima

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 6:17 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Yes in Israel. In Jerusalem.

I don't see what's weird.

Mizrachi is a cultural descriptor, as in Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Mizrachi. DL is a religious descriptor, as in secular, DL, charedi, etc. Of course there can be an overlap and I can see now how what I wrote initially might have been unclear and confusing. I was responding to earlier comments that are very different from my experience in my area, such as:

""Mizrachi" used to be another word for dati leumi. In reference to one of the political parties most affiliated with religious Zionist Jews in Israel."

"Mizrachi used to mean DL a few decades ago. The term fell out of favor for whatever reason, and became a somewhat derogatory term used by charedim to refer to the DL."

"Mizrachi is a term charedim use to encompass all DL, it is considered deragatory. It originated because that is what the charedim called the eastern Jews, from Arab lands. DL is much more than that and they do not appreciate being called essentially "Sefardim," especially by people who see themselves as better than Sefardim. It is not a term used by anyone other than in a deragatory context - the Mizrachnikim are not as careful as we are, the Mizrachnikim have allowed half of Africa's non-Jews to live in Israel, the Mizrachnikim don't understand why we won't send to army...."

Another mom

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 6:23 am

Amother Rose- please don't generalize. We do NOT eat kitniyot and neither do almost 100% of our neighbors. Maybe there are exceptions....

Another mom

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 6:27 am

Mizrachnik came from the Mizrachi party (Ashkenazim!!) Who looked east - Mizrach to Tzion. Today's Mizrachi (emphasis on the last syllable, not 1st) is from Eastern origin, as has been said.
Today's DL is not "modern" on the most part - very Makpid, just not Chareidi

etky

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 6:33 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Yes, it's pretty much an antiquated term used only by haredim and maybe people in chutz la'aretz who have the association of Mizrachi Women and World Mizrachi.
I would venture that most younger people in Israel have no idea what it means to be a 'mizrachi-type' of person. My kids - Bnei Akiva and Mamlachti Dati school graduates - certainly have no idea. When the HaMizrachi magazine began to appear in our home recently they had no idea about the movement it was affiliated with and thought it was something to do with edot hamizrach.
Most young people nowadays don't even remember the Mafdal (NRP) which was the Mizrachi's political successor. Rolling Eyes

amother

Rose

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 7:37 am

etky wrote:

This. If you said the word 'mizrachi' to my very Israeli kids (teens to adults), with the emphasis on the middle syllable, they would have no idea what you are talking about, unless they watched Shtisel.

Now if you said 'mizrachi' with the emphasis on the last syllable, everyone knows what you are talking about - and actually the whole 'mizrachi' Arab culture is undergoing a renaissance in Israel right now. It definitely dominates the current scene (music, attitude, cuisine, pride).

amother

Rose

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 7:42 am

Another mom wrote:

That really depends. DL is a huge spectrum. Yes right wing DL (sometimes called Torani or chardal) are very makpid on many things, but there is also mainstream DL and left wing/liberal DL.

There are also people who categorize themselves as DL-lite.

I would say that most of them actually are 'modern' except the most RW end of the spectrum.

PinkFridge

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 8:17 am

Crookshanks wrote:

This thread is so fascinating! Until I opened it I did not know that Mizrachi doesn't equal Dati Leumi anymore and that it is considered derogatory. I learned something new today!

So I learned on an older thread.
But not everyone got the memo and Mizrachi is still widely used to mean DL. And not in a derogatory way. I would like to think that most people know that DL is a hashkafa related to the state and not to level of mitzvah observance.

etky

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 8:20 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Do you mean in the US?

amother

Rose

Mon, Feb 15 2021, 8:37 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Mizrachi no longer means DL in Israel. At least not outside charedi circles.

DL is an entire hashkafa that is not just related to the state, but encompasses other elements (for example, an encouragement of women to become very learned).

Even when it comes to the state, DL is a spectrum - there are DL people with widely differing political ideologies. Yes most are Zionist, but Zionist is not a black and white category anymore, if it ever was.