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Question on Shabbos table setting
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amother




Orange
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 10:47 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
What do you mean? Usually you're included in the lechem mishna of whoever makes hamotzi. But if you go into the kitchen while everyone is eating challah and only wash afterwards, you weren't part of that lechem mishna and will need to make your own.


So I'm included in DH lechem mishnah, I say amen from the kitchen that's connected to the dining room.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 10:50 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
So I'm included in DH lechem mishnah, I say amen from the kitchen that's connected to the dining room.


Leaving aside the issue of whether you can be yotzei from another room, you're still only washing after he says hamotzi. That is not generally how things are done. You might want to clarify that.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 10:52 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
No, but if you put out the fish before the men come home, it sits out for a while.

If I’m playing an appetizer, I don’t put it on the table until right before we are ready to sit down. I take the fish (or other appetizer) out of the fridge well before that though, so that it’s either room temp or hot from being in the warming drawer. If it’s in the warming drawer, I’ll take it out about 10 minutes before we start, then plate it and leave it in the kitchen until everyone starts coming to the table to sit.
If it’s just room temp, then I will take it out of the fridge with enough time to get to room temp, and then plate it also about 10 minutes before. Everything is on the table before kiddush, but the finishing touch only goes on right before, not before my husband comes home from shul.
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sky




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 10:54 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
Standing around the table. No one drinks over the plates while standing around.

I always thought most ppl sat when drinking kiddush wine. It can’t be I wasn’t the only one taught like this. Don’t women and kids sit while men sing shalom aleichem.
If everyone is required to stand for singing, drinking. Including women and children then it just sounds super strange to me.

I’m sorry. I don’t mean to rip you apart. I guess I just don’t get it.


Last edited by sky on Tue, Feb 16 2021, 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 10:56 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
Who needs a plate for challa? All dips are in individual little dip bowls. They're out on the table in individual servings. There's also a charger at everyone's place.
I can't believe I'm being ripped apart for something so stupid.

Many people like to put dips and salads on their plate, and then dip the challah into them. Or they will take one bite with one dip, another bite with another dip....
Also, asking questions, in a respectful way, is not being ripped apart.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 10:59 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
Are we the only people who don't put out food before hamotzi on principle?

But yeah, if I went to someone's house and she took the small plates back into the kitchen, I would assume she had made a mistake setting the table. And I don't like having the fish plated for me because I don't like most kinds of fish. It would end up being wasted.

We just put o the dips and salads, cuz it looks pretty. Fish and any other appetizer comes out after we make hamotzi.
Out of curiosity, what is the reason for not putting out before? What is the principle?
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:00 am
Ema of 4 wrote:
Many people like to put dips and salads on their plate, and then dip the challah into them. Or they will take one bite with one dip, another bite with another dip....
Also, asking questions, in a respectful way, is not being ripped apart.


You have the piece of challah on your plate, put a spoonful of dip on the plate, break off a small piece of bread, and dip it.

Of course, OP may be using bread plates, so that this happens on the proper bread plate, not the fish/salad plate.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:01 am
Ema of 4 wrote:
We just put o the dips and salads, cuz it looks pretty. Fish and any other appetizer comes out after we make hamotzi.
Out of curiosity, what is the reason for not putting out before? What is the principle?


Maybe same reason we cover the challah while making kiddush?

I don't know.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:02 am
SixOfWands wrote:
You have the piece of challah on your plate, put a spoonful of dip on the plate, break off a small piece of bread, and dip it.

Of course, OP may be using bread plates, so that this happens on the proper bread plate, not the fish/salad plate.

But the person I quoted said there’s no plate.
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:04 am
Ema of 4 wrote:
We just put o the dips and salads, cuz it looks pretty. Fish and any other appetizer comes out after we make hamotzi.
Out of curiosity, what is the reason for not putting out before? What is the principle?


Kavod for the challah
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:11 am
Ema of 4 wrote:
But the person I quoted said there’s no plate.


Sorry. I was agreeing with you. That's why you need a plate.
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amother




Orange
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:18 am
Hopefully when I get home I'll post a full rundown pf our shabbos table bli neder.
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Frumme




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:18 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
Everyone has a different normal, why can't you understand that.
There's a charger at everyone's place if someone wants to put their challah on a plate. We have 2-3 dips, not more.


Sorry to add to the chaos. Not trying to nitpick, just genuinely curious. I have never heard of someone using a charger plate for food. I was taught that they are decorative and not generally washed beyond a rinse between uses unless visibily dirty, as well as chargers not necessarily being food safe.

If my host took my plate to plate it, I would wait until it came back to eat my challah and dips, etiquette wise
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:19 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
So I'm included in DH lechem mishnah, I say amen from the kitchen that's connected to the dining room.


If you haven't washed and you're not ready to eat, there's definitely a question whether you can be considered included in that bracha.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:30 am
Ema of 4 wrote:
We just put o the dips and salads, cuz it looks pretty. Fish and any other appetizer comes out after we make hamotzi.
Out of curiosity, what is the reason for not putting out before? What is the principle?


The gemara in Pesachim 100b quotes a beraita that you don't bring out the food until after kiddush.

(וְשָׁוִין) שֶׁאֵין מְבִיאִין אֶת הַשּׁוּלְחָן אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן קִידֵּשׁ, וְאִם הֵבִיא — פּוֹרֵס מַפָּה וּמְקַדֵּשׁ.

"And the Sages agree that one may bring the table only if he has already recited kiddush; and if one brought out the table before kiddush, he should spread a cloth over the food and recite kiddush."

"The table" might just refer to bread, but it may also mean any food. So we don't bring anything out until after hamotzi. Putting out food first isn't necessarily wrong, it's just something we don't do.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 11:32 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
The gemara in Pesachim 100b quotes a beraita that you don't bring out the food until after kiddush.

(וְשָׁוִין) שֶׁאֵין מְבִיאִין אֶת הַשּׁוּלְחָן אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן קִידֵּשׁ, וְאִם הֵבִיא — פּוֹרֵס מַפָּה וּמְקַדֵּשׁ.

"And the Sages agree that one may bring the table only if he has already recited kiddush; and if one brought out the table before kiddush, he should spread a cloth over the food and recite kiddush."

"The table" might just refer to bread, but it may also mean any food. So we don't bring anything out until after hamotzi. Putting out food first isn't necessarily wrong, it's just something we don't do.

Interesting, you learn something new every day. Thanks!!
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amother




Taupe
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:03 pm
I also grew up not putting food out before hamotzi.
The truth is this is a dilemma I often have as well!
But I don't bring back the plates, especially as there is a gluten allergy in the family and it's too hard to control the crumbs.


I'm trying to understand the bracha sequence. I think plating could be a hefsek if done any time after washing and before challah.
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:20 pm
I was raised that nothing was brought out until after Challa.
But that bothered me because we would all sit and eat challa, a lot of challa.
In my house, you come to the table, everyone who wants has a piece of gefilte fish in front of them on a salad plate, on top of the dinner plate.(I ask who wants). If you decline gefilte fish, you get a salad plate on top of the dinner plate.
Bowls of salad, pickles, olives are already on the table. We don't do dips otherwise we eat way too much challa.
This way everyone can start eating the salad and fish right after the challa.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 1:00 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
The gemara in Pesachim 100b quotes a beraita that you don't bring out the food until after kiddush.

(וְשָׁוִין) שֶׁאֵין מְבִיאִין אֶת הַשּׁוּלְחָן אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן קִידֵּשׁ, וְאִם הֵבִיא — פּוֹרֵס מַפָּה וּמְקַדֵּשׁ.

"And the Sages agree that one may bring the table only if he has already recited kiddush; and if one brought out the table before kiddush, he should spread a cloth over the food and recite kiddush."

"The table" might just refer to bread, but it may also mean any food. So we don't bring anything out until after hamotzi. Putting out food first isn't necessarily wrong, it's just something we don't do.


I remember having some sort of discussion like this with DH once, gotta ask him again. Though both of us grew up with the fish, salads, etc...already being on the table, and we haven't changed anything in that respect.

I'm gonna guess we go with the covering of the bread interpretation.
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Learning




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 1:09 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
The gemara in Pesachim 100b quotes a beraita that you don't bring out the food until after kiddush.

(וְשָׁוִין) שֶׁאֵין מְבִיאִין אֶת הַשּׁוּלְחָן אֶלָּא אִם כֵּן קִידֵּשׁ, וְאִם הֵבִיא — פּוֹרֵס מַפָּה וּמְקַדֵּשׁ.

"And the Sages agree that one may bring the table only if he has already recited kiddush; and if one brought out the table before kiddush, he should spread a cloth over the food and recite kiddush."

"The table" might just refer to bread, but it may also mean any food. So we don't bring anything out until after hamotzi. Putting out food first isn't necessarily wrong, it's just something we don't do.

I’m not a rabbi but maybe the interpretation is that dips and vegetables are not really considered Shabbos food or “food food”. Maybe chazal mean food is the meat and fish. Which also can explain that they don’t want it to get spoiled. I also agree that I wouldn’t bring back to the kitchen and reserve it because it is insanitary and I find it gross also. Especially during coronavirus. For example When you go out to eat in a restaurant and there is a buffet it is appropriate to take a clean plate when you go out for seconds even if your food on your plate don’t usually touch the serving plate. I would put everything out and serve the fish somehow after everyone sat down. Maybe you can have a salad plate and ask everyone to put the salad plate on the side and put the new fish plate in front of them if you don’t want to have a fish platter served in the table after hamotzi
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