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-> Children's Health
-> Vaccinations
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amother
Indigo
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 Tue, Feb 23 2021, 12:45 pm
| amother [ Crimson ] wrote: | Making decisions and regretting them and dealing with the consequences is also part of being an adult. At least she is also getting positive results and enjoying her freedom.
But if it was her decision, she needs to take responsibility for it. Don't blame the seminary. |
I just heard a voice note from rabbi Kirland in darchei bina re girls getting vaccinated. If that is not coercion, I don’t know what is. I am horrified, shocked, mad.
No one at any age should be making important medical decisions on their own, no matter what age. And telling girls it’s ok to lie to their parents as to not make them angry..... so beyond.
Shame on him.
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amother
Indigo
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 12:50 pm
I think a lot of parents are going to be looking into local options for next year.
Paying 20k for seminary to get the chinuch that rabbi knows better is insanity.
Sem leaders know these young adults for 5 months, they dont know any of their families medical backgrounds, they don’t know any hidden genetic risks but they are ok telling them to withhold information from parents?
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finprof
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 12:55 pm
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OP, I disagree with your position on vaccines but I empathize with you, as a mother wanting the best for your child.
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amother
Indigo
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 1:02 pm
Mainly, op, I am so sorry for your pain. I would be beyond devastated. My daughter will be 18 in sem if she goes next year. I’m trying to put myself in your shoes.
I think if she consulted with family or close friends out of her seminary bubble, I would respect her decision. If she made an impulsive choice by just doing what her friends or teachers in sem told her to do, I would be extremely disappointed. That is not a sign of maturity.
May you have much nachas from her. .
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amother
Lavender
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 1:17 pm
I am so sorry you are going through this. As a parent it is extremely painful to see a legal but not yet emtional adult child do something you view as possible irreversible medical harm that was unnecessary. Most mothers would feel you if they could see through their vaccine fogged glasses.
Legal might be 18, but the brain does not finish to adulthood until 21.
Like if your 18 yo dd got pregnant, got EEE breast implants on her size 0 petite frame, full body tattoo, for the mothers who cannot put the vaccine aside for this.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 1:27 pm
| Quote: |
Do you think she might be having "buyer's remorse" because of your extreme reaction?
She is nearly an adult, if you are using guilt to control her ("it will upset my mother") then it is time to let go.
I understand this is hard for you, individuation is a separation for both the child and adult, but you are stifling her development as a person. This is an important developmental milestone.
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My "extreme reaction" if anything was before she took the vaccine. If she was going to feel remorse, I welcome it then, because it could have saved her from an unnecessary risk and remorse. I actually think she was able to make this choice because my conversations with her were not extreme at all. And I don't do extreme reactions after. I don't think she would ever feel remorse because of my feelings. Even if in general pleasing me was a goal, she is miles away from me, can't see my feelings, and I don't think she would be able to guess my feelings even if she were here until her child did the same thing. What my children see at home is a mother talking about what she should be for Purim. I got a phone call from a sibling that was possibly involved in her decision, and when they asked me what is going on by me, I answered that I cannot believe no one sells Feivish costumes, I decided to dress up. From what I heard from someone else, she feels remorse because she understands the risk. She did not indicate to me that she feels remorse. I did not speak to her about this topic since she took the vaccine.
I'm sorry but I had professional advice regarding discussing the vaccine with her, and I don't believe I was stifling her. In fact, my professional advisor anticipated that if she took matters into her own hands, she was likely to feel remorse and learn from the experience without me saying anything. Her remorse was quick! By the way, it is possible for parent and child to discuss important medical decisions without stifling someone. I'm not sure on what basis you can say this. You don't know me.
And perhaps you can explain letting go in more detail. So once I let go, are good and bad happening to my daughter equivalent in my eyes? Will bad happening to my daughter affect my happiness in the slightest? Did you personally try this? I understand this topic very well, and it is a life's work.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 2:17 pm
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I would love to go through this thread and give a personal shout out to each and every person who contributed by understanding, validating, empathizing, and giving brachos. Amen! It is very comforting.
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amother
Aqua
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 2:43 pm
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Remorse? For being protected and for having more freedom in the country as places open up? I would think those that are not protected and cannot travel and go around freely will be feeling the remorse.
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amother
Emerald
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 2:50 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Quote: |
Do you think she might be having "buyer's remorse" because of your extreme reaction?
She is nearly an adult, if you are using guilt to control her ("it will upset my mother") then it is time to let go.
I understand this is hard for you, individuation is a separation for both the child and adult, but you are stifling her development as a person. This is an important developmental milestone.
|
My "extreme reaction" if anything was before she took the vaccine. If she was going to feel remorse, I welcome it then, because it could have saved her from an unnecessary risk and remorse. I actually think she was able to make this choice because my conversations with her were not extreme at all. And I don't do extreme reactions after. I don't think she would ever feel remorse because of my feelings. Even if in general pleasing me was a goal, she is miles away from me, can't see my feelings, and I don't think she would be able to guess my feelings even if she were here until her child did the same thing. |
Why do you think she is feeling remorse?
We feel remorse when we think we did something wrong.
What is wrong about the choice she made other than its hurting her mother? (and its wrong to hurt your parents).
The only consequences she is aware of right now, to her choice are social. She's not a member of the 'no vaxx group' any more. Is that her regret? Her mother is disappointed.
If there has been a medical consequence to her, from what you've told us, she's fully unaware of it
If she is regretting making a decision because it was made by social pressure and not by medical investigation..... help her understand that many many many of her life choice to date have been made on account of social pressures.... and many many many more will be. That's very human.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 2:50 pm
| Quote: |
OP, I’m not understanding the situation. Did school force it? Did she just decide on her own without discussing with you? Did you discuss it and have a disagreement and she did what she wanted because she didn’t technically need your consent?
Not understanding where the breakdown occurred. I would be so angry at my DDs if I was not included in the conversation and honestly, listened to, as the final decision would and should be mine, however, they would have a voice in the conversation and we would debate it and I would be open to hearing them. (I am vaccinated and very much wanting my girls vaccinated but can’t get them yet in the US-but that is not the point).
And to everyone else, no, a child in Seminary is not an adult, at least not in my circles.
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The school did not force it, but they have additional covid restrictions above the government that they were going to lift for girls who were vaccinated. To my daughter, there was tremendous incentive. Very powerful instant gratification. My daughter cares a lot about freedom. We spoke about the vaccine many times. My husband and I did not think it made sense at this point, and our doctor advised against it. For the older children in our family that really wanted vaccination, we were waiting for Novovax. She knew that. I know the seminary strongly encouraged it, and I don't know if they gave a blessing to do against parents will. I think not. My daughter called me before 9 in the morning here to tell me that she was on her way to get the vaccine, she evaluated and she won't be listening to us and understands the risks. I did what I could in the amount of time I had (no time to ask for an update on seminary stance of parental consent) Getting the vaccine was a huge emergency because it was the last day in order to get green passport before Pesach. She had to make the choice standing on one leg. We had spoken about it at length the day before so it seems like she made the decision without us while we were sleeping. Since she did not vaccinate for medical reasons, and I believe she is on our side about possible side effects, but was focused on short term gains over her perceived long term risks, I do believe it was an immature decision.
I was the most empathetic I've ever been the day before, asking what she was losing out on by not vaccinating. I truly felt bad. Her answer was that she doesn't know yet, because her seminary will make the rules once the month passes for the first vaccinators. She doesn't even know what the full reward is, but does know of 2 additional freedoms (public transportation and more freedom in pesach plans)? There are others that did not yet vaccinate, and I told her to band together with them. Her good friend was in this pool, but went with her to vaccinate without parental consent. I do not know if her mother got an identical phone call or knows she vaccinated.
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amother
Slategray
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 2:52 pm
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She sounds like a smart girl, and I do think she made the right decision by taking the shot.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 2:56 pm
| Elfrida wrote: | And in other circles a seventeen year old might be married, and not understand while she still needs her parents to sign a permission form. (And yes, I've dealt with that as well.) 🙄
The law is made for the population as a whole, not any specific circles. |
I don't consider my 18 year olds to be fully adults. Then again, I don't consider them to be anything near marriage age.
Nevertheless, in the US, they are entitled to make their own medical decisions at 18, and I am not legally entitled to be consulted, or even informed, of those decisions.
Parenting adult children is a whole new ballgame, and not an easy one. I sympathise with that, even if I disagree over the vaccine issue.
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amother
Red
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 2:58 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Quote: |
Do you think she might be having "buyer's remorse" because of your extreme reaction?
She is nearly an adult, if you are using guilt to control her ("it will upset my mother") then it is time to let go.
I understand this is hard for you, individuation is a separation for both the child and adult, but you are stifling her development as a person. This is an important developmental milestone.
|
My "extreme reaction" if anything was before she took the vaccine. If she was going to feel remorse, I welcome it then, because it could have saved her from an unnecessary risk and remorse. I actually think she was able to make this choice because my conversations with her were not extreme at all. And I don't do extreme reactions after. I don't think she would ever feel remorse because of my feelings. Even if in general pleasing me was a goal, she is miles away from me, can't see my feelings, and I don't think she would be able to guess my feelings even if she were here until her child did the same thing. What my children see at home is a mother talking about what she should be for Purim. I got a phone call from a sibling that was possibly involved in her decision, and when they asked me what is going on by me, I answered that I cannot believe no one sells Feivish costumes, I decided to dress up. From what I heard from someone else, she feels remorse because she understands the risk. She did not indicate to me that she feels remorse. I did not speak to her about this topic since she took the vaccine.
I'm sorry but I had professional advice regarding discussing the vaccine with her, and I don't believe I was stifling her. In fact, my professional advisor anticipated that if she took matters into her own hands, she was likely to feel remorse and learn from the experience without me saying anything. Her remorse was quick! By the way, it is possible for parent and child to discuss important medical decisions without stifling someone. I'm not sure on what basis you can say this. You don't know me.
And perhaps you can explain letting go in more detail. So once I let go, are good and bad happening to my daughter equivalent in my eyes? Will bad happening to my daughter affect my happiness in the slightest? Did you personally try this? I understand this topic very well, and it is a life's work. |
What is a professional advisor in this capacity?
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amother
Emerald
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 3:00 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Quote: |
OP, I’m not understanding the situation. Did school force it? Did she just decide on her own without discussing with you? Did you discuss it and have a disagreement and she did what she wanted because she didn’t technically need your consent?
Not understanding where the breakdown occurred. I would be so angry at my DDs if I was not included in the conversation and honestly, listened to, as the final decision would and should be mine, however, they would have a voice in the conversation and we would debate it and I would be open to hearing them. (I am vaccinated and very much wanting my girls vaccinated but can’t get them yet in the US-but that is not the point).
And to everyone else, no, a child in Seminary is not an adult, at least not in my circles.
|
The school did not force it, but they have additional covid restrictions above the government that they were going to lift for girls who were vaccinated. To my daughter, there was tremendous incentive. Very powerful instant gratification. My daughter cares a lot about freedom. We spoke about the vaccine many times. My husband and I did not think it made sense at this point, and our doctor advised against it. For the older children in our family that really wanted vaccination, we were waiting for Novovax. She knew that. I know the seminary strongly encouraged it, and I don't know if they gave a blessing to do against parents will. I think not. My daughter called me before 9 in the morning here to tell me that she was on her way to get the vaccine, she evaluated and she won't be listening to us and understands the risks. I did what I could in the amount of time I had (no time to ask for an update on seminary stance of parental consent) Getting the vaccine was a huge emergency because it was the last day in order to get green passport before Pesach. She had to make the choice standing on one leg. We had spoken about it at length the day before so it seems like she made the decision without us while we were sleeping. Since she did not vaccinate for medical reasons, and I believe she is on our side about possible side effects, but was focused on short term gains over her perceived long term risks, I do believe it was an immature decision.
I was the most empathetic I've ever been the day before, asking what she was losing out on by not vaccinating. I truly felt bad. Her answer was that she doesn't know yet, because her seminary will make the rules once the month passes for the first vaccinators. She doesn't even know what the full reward is, but does know of 2 additional freedoms (public transportation and more freedom in pesach plans)? There are others that did not yet vaccinate, and I told her to band together with them. Her good friend was in this pool, but went with her to vaccinate without parental consent. I do not know if her mother got an identical phone call or knows she vaccinated. |
Israel is making things very difficult for people who don't vaccinate. Her decision wasn't immature.... most adults faced with her choice would do the same.
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octopus
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 3:03 pm
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I did not have time to read through the thread and what happened was upsetting. But bezras Hashem it will be fine and your daughter will be 100% fine no lasting repercussions. The whole of israel was basically a guinea pig . Bezras Hashem it will be only good!!
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 3:05 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Quote: |
OP, I’m not understanding the situation. Did school force it? Did she just decide on her own without discussing with you? Did you discuss it and have a disagreement and she did what she wanted because she didn’t technically need your consent?
Not understanding where the breakdown occurred. I would be so angry at my DDs if I was not included in the conversation and honestly, listened to, as the final decision would and should be mine, however, they would have a voice in the conversation and we would debate it and I would be open to hearing them. (I am vaccinated and very much wanting my girls vaccinated but can’t get them yet in the US-but that is not the point).
And to everyone else, no, a child in Seminary is not an adult, at least not in my circles.
|
The school did not force it, but they have additional covid restrictions above the government that they were going to lift for girls who were vaccinated. To my daughter, there was tremendous incentive. Very powerful instant gratification. My daughter cares a lot about freedom. We spoke about the vaccine many times. My husband and I did not think it made sense at this point, and our doctor advised against it. For the older children in our family that really wanted vaccination, we were waiting for Novovax. She knew that. I know the seminary strongly encouraged it, and I don't know if they gave a blessing to do against parents will. I think not. My daughter called me before 9 in the morning here to tell me that she was on her way to get the vaccine, she evaluated and she won't be listening to us and understands the risks. I did what I could in the amount of time I had (no time to ask for an update on seminary stance of parental consent) Getting the vaccine was a huge emergency because it was the last day in order to get green passport before Pesach. She had to make the choice standing on one leg. We had spoken about it at length the day before so it seems like she made the decision without us while we were sleeping. Since she did not vaccinate for medical reasons, and I believe she is on our side about possible side effects, but was focused on short term gains over her perceived long term risks, I do believe it was an immature decision.
I was the most empathetic I've ever been the day before, asking what she was losing out on by not vaccinating. I truly felt bad. Her answer was that she doesn't know yet, because her seminary will make the rules once the month passes for the first vaccinators. She doesn't even know what the full reward is, but does know of 2 additional freedoms (public transportation and more freedom in pesach plans)? There are others that did not yet vaccinate, and I told her to band together with them. Her good friend was in this pool, but went with her to vaccinate without parental consent. I do not know if her mother got an identical phone call or knows she vaccinated. |
OP, your daughter did not make a decision "standing on one leg." She apparently considered it at length, did her research, considered your position, and made her decision.
I don't know why you assume that she didn't vaccinate for medical reasons. The "medical reasons" to vaccinate are to avoid the potentially devastating effects of covid.
She sounds like an intelligent, considerate young woman. You did a good job with her, even if you disagree with her.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 3:20 pm
| Quote: |
Why do you think she is feeling remorse?
We feel remorse when we think we did something wrong.
What is wrong about the choice she made other than its hurting her mother? (and its wrong to hurt your parents).
The only consequences she is aware of right now, to her choice are social. She's not a member of the 'no vaxx group' any more. Is that her regret? Her mother is disappointed.
If there has been a medical consequence to her, from what you've told us, she's fully unaware of it
If she is regretting making a decision because it was made by social pressure and not by medical investigation..... help her understand that many many many of her life choice to date have been made on account of social pressures.... and many many many more will be. That's very human.
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The evidence I have that she is feeling remorse is that it was reported to me that she is concerned about birth defects from the DNA vaccine that she took. She did not get that idea from me, and she did not confide her concern to me. I have never heard about this being a concern (though infertility is), and I follow vaccine information closely. I am not ready to correct her view on this, because I do think what she is experiencing is a natural consequence to her choice.
You don't think it's possible for her to make an emergency decision and regret it without me in the picture? My professional advisor thinks she will regret it much more without me there to point things out to her. My daughter is not the type to feel remorse based on a mother's feelings anyway. Personality and context matter in this story. My daughter feels remorse when SHE evaluates something to be a mistake.
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amother
Slategray
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 3:22 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Quote: |
Why do you think she is feeling remorse?
We feel remorse when we think we did something wrong.
What is wrong about the choice she made other than its hurting her mother? (and its wrong to hurt your parents).
The only consequences she is aware of right now, to her choice are social. She's not a member of the 'no vaxx group' any more. Is that her regret? Her mother is disappointed.
If there has been a medical consequence to her, from what you've told us, she's fully unaware of it
If she is regretting making a decision because it was made by social pressure and not by medical investigation..... help her understand that many many many of her life choice to date have been made on account of social pressures.... and many many many more will be. That's very human.
|
The evidence I have that she is feeling remorse is that it was reported to me that she is concerned about birth defects from the DNA vaccine that she took. She did not get that idea from me, and she did not confide her concern to me. I have never heard about this being a concern (though infertility is), and I follow vaccine information closely. I am not ready to correct her view on this, because I do think what she is experiencing is a natural consequence to her choice.
You don't think it's possible for her to make an emergency decision and regret it without me in the picture? My professional advisor thinks she will regret it much more without me there to point things out to her. My daughter is not the type to feel remorse based on a mother's feelings anyway. Personality and context matter in this story. |
That is just not nice of you. Honestly, now you sound like a sulky, bratty teenager who's trying to 'punish' someone who did something they don't like
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amother
Aqua
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 3:29 pm
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Professional advisor... 😂
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amother
Slategray
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Tue, Feb 23 2021, 3:31 pm
| amother [ Slategray ] wrote: | | That is just not nice of you. Honestly, now you sound like a sulky, bratty teenager who's trying to 'punish' someone who did something they don't like |
Oh, are we still hugging posts we don't like? I didn't realize that was still a thing
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