How would you answer these Covid vaccine questions?

amother

Mon, Mar 01 2021, 8:07 am

I found this gave me a lot of food for thought.
21 Questions that Demand Answers
21 Questions That Demand Answers
Chananya Weissman
March 1

1. They used to define a vaccine as a substance that prevents a disease. Now to qualify as a vaccine it only needs to reduce the chances of developing a serious case of a disease. On that basis, can vitamin D be considered a vaccine for Covid-19? What about Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, Zinc, et al. If not, why not? Are we just splitting hairs?

2. Why are people who took the "vaccine" more afraid of contact with unvaccinated people than they were before they took it? Shouldn't just the opposite be true?

3. You claim there is no evidence that anyone died from the vaccine. What exactly would constitute evidence? Be specific.

4. How does "evidence" that someone died from Covid-19 differ from your answer to the above question?

5. Since when is a healthy person considered a murderer for refusing to take an experimental drug, or any drug, for that matter? Since when does speculating that someone might get sick and get others sick render someone a murderer who should be preemptively punished with less due process and presumption of innocence than an actual murderer?

6. If you believe such people are murderers, what punishment would be too great for them? Why would you stop there? Explain. Please also provide historical parallels that did not directly coincide with tyranny.

7. Do you consider smokers murderers? Should smokers be isolated from society, denied medical care, and otherwise punished?

8. If we care so much about human life above all other considerations, why is smoking still permitted? Why is it acceptable to remove a mask to smoke a cigarette?

9. If a healthy person who never got anyone sick is considered a murderer, what would you call a person in authority who orders Covid-19 patients to be placed in nursing homes, directly leading to the death of many elderly captives? Is it fair to call such a person a mass murderer?

10. If a drug is safe, effective, and just glorious, why can't it sell itself? If you claim "anti-vaxxers" are so powerful and influential, why is it only with this particular drug that they have fooled such a high percentage of people?

11. By what right do you smear people who have concerns about this experimental vaccine, and only this vaccine, as "anti-vaxxers"? Is this not just a dishonest effort to put them on the defensive, discredit them, and silence criticism? Since this can potentially lead to the loss of life, would it be fair to refer to those who engage in this rhetorical device as murderers?

12. Why is "anti-vaxxer" a smear altogether? Is there not legitimate cause for people to be concerned about other such drugs and to prefer alternative treatments? On what moral basis can you defame people who have different views of medicine, especially when they have evidence to back up their positions?

13. Do you believe it is to the benefit of science or the public good for those whose beliefs do not align with the establishment to be slandered, bullied, and marginalized? Does the establishment have a 100% "truth" rate to merit such blind adherence?

14. What would it take for you to change your position on masks, lockdowns, and the "experimental vaccine"? Please be specific. Would you accept "evidence" and studies from outside the establishment? If not, why not?

15. Do you really believe that there were literally zero cases of flu in the UK and Israel this year, as the establishment "experts" claim? If so, how do you explain this in scientific terms, especially because they also claim the flu spreads more easily than Covid-19? If not, why do you believe them about anything else, when they tell such preposterous lies with a straight face?

16. They keep saying there are new strains of Covid-19. We are told that they are "more deadly, more dangerous, spread more quickly, and will require endless new vaccines". Lots of fear-mongering. Can you explain in specific scientific terms what is actually different about these strains?

17. Being that children are at virtually no danger from Covid-19, how is it ethical to force them to wear masks – which damages them physically and psychologically – be kept in solitary confinement for weeks at a time, and inject them with an experimental drug, merely for the presumed benefit of preventing them from spreading it to others? Since when does the government own them and their bodies?

18. In hindsight, knowing all that we know now, would you agree that the situation should have been handled very differently from the beginning? If not, why not? If yes, would you agree that those in charge have either been grossly incompetent or criminally deceitful? In light of that, why should they be entrusted with continuing to manage the situation? What do they have to do to deserve getting fired and replaced?

19. Why do you believe it is ridiculous that rich and powerful people, most of whom are godless, would conspire with one another to become more rich and more powerful? Isn't that the way it's always been? Why is it crazy to believe that now?

20. What have the rich and powerful people of the world, the establishment media, and large corporations done to earn your loyalty and blind trust in the past year? What could they possibly do to lose it?

21. Is it possible that no matter how much information comes to light you will refuse to rethink your beliefs because the ugly truth you would be forced to accept is unbearable? Is your position truly based in science, or human psychology? What would it take to make you step back and humbly reflect on your beliefs and your behavior over the past year?

imasinger

Mon, Mar 01 2021, 8:35 am

Okay, I'll bite. I hate misinformation.

1. A vaccine is a substance that causes your body to produce antibodies. Treatments that don't are just that. They may help alleviate symptoms, but don't slow spread, or prevent people from getting seriously ill.

2. People who took the vaccine are NOT more afraid of contact with unvaccinated. But they are not yet throwing all safety measures to the wind, because a) we're still in early stages of knowing just how much you're protected (though the first studies are, b"H, very very promising), and b) if you're at risk, even a vaccine that prevents 90+% of serious illness or death might still scare you. Which doesn't make you more cautious, just continuing to be so.

3. Seriously? You don't think anyone who died after being vaccinated isn't being carefully examined as to cause of death? That level of paranoia against all medical practitioners isn't sane. If such cases existed, they'd be published in the medical literature.

4. See #3. If people who were only partially vaccinated tested positive for Covid, they had Covid. The mRNA vaccines don't have any virus in them, they work differently.

5. Hyperbole and misinformation. Nobody is being called a murderer because they choose not to get the Covid vaccine. Or any other vaccine. They might be called one if they then expect to be around other vulnerable people, carrying their germs. When we don't have herd immunity, there's risk. They have every right to do what they want in private. And we're not "speculating that someone might get sick", we're seeing people suffering terribly who DID get sick. A year ago, one could argue ignorance as to how Covid spreads. Not any longer. While some people who have been playing it very safe are getting sick, most of the time, we see the greatest spread and suffering among those who put their own comfort above the well being of others, against most Torah response.

Continuing...

imasinger

Mon, Mar 01 2021, 8:49 am

6. What would you call someone who dumps poison or radioactive waste into a public reservoir, if only a small percentage of those drinking would actually get sick and die?

Too extreme? Probably. Fine. Literally. If someone isn't willing to care for the lives of those around them, see if heavy fines might help incentive them. Nobody's locking anyone away for not wearing a mask.

7 and 8. Smoking is a wonderful analogy. Smokers can do as they wish in private. Their funeral. In public, if they smoke and bother others, potentially risking their health, they are told to stop or leave. Same deal with masking in public places until we're all safe. Which, if people would vaccinate when possible, would happen sooner.

BTW, where are people being allowed to remove their masks to smoke? I haven't seen that.

9. There are plenty of calls for justice about that nursing home fiasco. The only qualification I can make is ignorance. Early in the pandemic, some in charge might not have been aware of how extremely dangerous that was. If they were, I have no problem using the label of mass murderer.

By the way, I also might persuaded to use that term for anyone who knowingly planned large, unmasked gatherings that led to multiple deaths.

10. The vaccine IS selling itself. And in a world where we weren't dealing with a disease so deadly and contagious, the wisdom would probably be, do whatever makes you happy. There's relatively little pressure to make frum Jews get the herpes vaccine. Covid is far more deadly and contagious, and people who are ignorant spread lies and fear that end up causing real communal harm.

imasinger

Mon, Mar 01 2021, 9:01 am

11. You're right, someone uncomfortable about the Covid vaccine only shouldn't be called an anti vaxxer. But no, we don't call the people who do so "murderers" because you think there's secret evidence that this vaccine is dangerous (not talking about allergy issues here, those at risk are discouraged from vaccination, and/or watched carefully for problems), despite all the careful documentation to the contrary.

12. The people I know who are against all vaccination wear the term "anti vaxxer" with pride. I actually think the term came from those opposed to vaccination.

13. I don't think it's right for anyone to be slandered or bullied. On either side. Nor do I believe there is one monolith called "the establishment". There are established institutions that follow procedures in a scientific way. Those get my attention and belief far faster than rumormongers.

14. It would take large double blind studies carefully conducted by knowledgeable experts who worked hard to avoid mistakes. Which is what people who instituted these policies were convinced by.

15. How do you know more about this than those actually in the doctor's offices and hospitals? They have no reason to lie on the matter, while you have an interest in discrediting them. Guess which a rational person is going to believe?

And I haven't heard anyone credible claiming that flu spreads more rapidly than Covid. Anyone have a link?

imasinger

Mon, Mar 01 2021, 9:20 am

16. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.or.....-know

17. Try talking to those families whose children got sick or died about how this has "virtually no danger" to children. That was an early statement that was later modified as people learned more about the virus. We also have to be concerned about children who don't get ill who are still possibly spreading the virus to those at risk.

The sooner the world is vaccinated, the sooner all kids can be back in school without masks. Which ought to be a top priority for everyone!

18. Investigations are ongoing. Many who haven't handled the pandemic well have been fired and replaced. I imagine more will follow. That being said, when one is forced to fly blind through a thunderstorm, one is neither grossly incompetent, nor criminally deceitful, if one makes serious mistakes in the process. The issue is how those mistakes are addressed, and the wrongs treated.

19. Conspiracy theories have been and continue to be insane, and reflect a grossly incompetent understanding of basic human nature. The people in power are competing against each other, and the odds of everyone agreeing and being able to cover up anything so widely investigated as a pandemic are...well...slimmer than the odds of someone without allergies dying from the Covid vaccine.

20. There's a difference between earned trust and blind trust. In general, one has to decide for oneself, but the odds are against vague conspiracy theories, as discussed above. That being said, we have certainly seen large corporations and governments act unethically, and try to hush it up. Responsible, fact based and provable reporting is what convinced public opinion to change.

21. Back atcha. *I* have done my research, done my best to not say anything I couldn't back up with properly obtained and convincing evidence. Can those pushing everyone not to mask, not to vaccinate, and not to trust anyone with medical knowledge say the same?

ora_43

Mon, Mar 01 2021, 9:38 am

Point #1 is already bizarre. I don't think I'll make it through the list...

A vaccine has never been defined as "a substance that prevents a disease." A vaccine is not currently defined as something that "reduces the risk of a serious case". Like imasinger said, a vaccine is something that mimics the disease, but with significantly reduced symptoms, in order to create an immune system response producing antibodies.

A few other random points:

Re: #15, nobody claims that the flu spreads more quickly and easily than covid. That's literally the opposite of the truth. The flu is less contagious. Which seems to be the reason that it's "disappeared" (for now) - the measures that slow the spread of covid are enough to stop the spread of the flu (again, for now).

Re: #20, nice straw man you've got there.

Re: #12, I think he may be confused about what science even is?

Science is research based on the scientific process. You don't get to have 'views' about science. Because there is no such thing. You can have hypotheses about science that you then test and either prove or disprove. But a personal opinion is by definition not scientific.

Honestly the answer to like 20 of these points is that he's assuming something that simply isn't true. Yes, there are plenty of questions if you assume that the flu is more contagious than covid - but it isn't, and nobody says it is. Yes, there would be questions to ask if literally anyone were saying people should go ahead and take their masks off to smoke ( Can't Believe It

), but... that's not a real thing.

Before you ask "why," ask "is it true."

Java

Mon, Mar 01 2021, 12:27 pm

Here's another jewel by the same guy just FYI
Not too long ago, a daredevil was someone who climbed Mount Everest or jumped out of planes. That’s all changed. Right now, I’m the bravest person in the room. I’m willing to shake hands.

This past Shabbos, I made it known that I was willing to shake anyone’s hand at my minyan. People responded with bewilderment, amazement, and maybe a touch of admiration. But there were no takers. They didn’t want to die.

Praying outside on a windy, frigid Shabbos was an acceptable risk, but shaking my hand was asking for it. The benefits were too small, the risk simply not worth it.

I read the Torah on Shabbos, as I do almost every week. Those given an aliyah endangered their lives to stand closer to me than usual, but it was only for a few moments and worth the risk. Despite the added danger, however, none of them saw fit to bentch gomel. Interesting.

None of the men kissed the Torah. One man touched it with the end of this tallis, then brought the tallis up to his mask for a pretend kiss. Apparently, touching the outside of your mask with invisible death is safe enough and in line with current Health Ministry guidelines.

I made a point of touching the Torah, then kissing my fingers, and announced that I was not afraid it would be the kiss of death. The other men looked at me with astonishment and nervous smiles, unsure if I was crazy, heroic, or the only sane one. That’s what the fear and confusion have reduced us to.

A Jew is not supposed to be like this.

We have been reduced to a community of paranoid hypochondriacs, afraid that every breath will kill us, that the most basic human contact is an unreasonable roll of the dice, that everything we once considered normal and even obligatory must be off limits indefinitely – in some cases even forever.

This is insane. This is against everything the Torah teaches us.

I am not denying that Covid-19 is real and should be taken seriously. At the same time, I am denying that the angel of death is roaming among us, felling people left and right. This is not a Biblical plague. There are a million ways we can die, and Covid-19 is just another one.

I don’t want to get it, and I don’t want to give it to anyone else, but the terror that we have been living with for the last year is unjustified. Because of this terror, one third of Israel is currently living in poverty, with many others barely hanging on. Drug and alcohol abuse are up, domestic abuse is up, suicides are up, social workers are overwhelmed, elderly people are dying from loneliness, children are traumatized, parents are falling apart, thousands of businesses have closed forever, and so much more.

They tell us if it saves one life it’s worth it. That is a ridiculous bit of propaganda. We are not saving any lives. We are destroying our society and everyone in it – except for a very privileged and powerful few.

Worst of all, we are losing our minds, losing our spirits, losing our very humanity.

Chazal teach us that an impoverished person is like a dead person. The government has no moral right to impoverish millions of people, destroying their lives and their families, because it may conceivably protect other people’s lives. They have no right to decide whose livelihood is essential nor whose life is more essential. Those who “lock down” their populations should instead be locked up.

If we know someone has Covid, we should not share the air they breathe. However, it is not the Jewish way to live in terror that everyone around us is infected and that every object is carrying a deadly virus. It is forbidden to think like this, and it is forbidden to live like this.

It is forbidden to distance yourself from loved ones, friends, and strangers because you are afraid their breath or touch will kill you, or that yours will kill them, when you have no concrete reason to believe anyone is infected.

There is no precedent in our history for Jews to live this way, even during the worst of plagues. For a short time, maybe. Even so, it was never like this. The sick were quarantined, and those who were afraid to be near them were absolved from doing so. But it was never imposed on everyone; it was never claimed to be a Torah obligation that blotted out the rest of our existence.

Indeed, gedolim and tzaddikim would often tend to the sick when others were afraid to go near them. Some of them eventually became sick themselves and died; many did not. That is part of life, and sometimes that is how life ends. If it was someone’s time to go, at least it was through helping another person and truly living. Otherwise it would have happened a different way.

The notion that we must live in terror, our entire focus devoted to maximizing our chances for survival at the expense of actually living, was never entertained. That’s not the Jewish way. It’s insane.

A Jew who is paranoid, who lives in fear of unseen, entirely speculative dangers is presumed to be a sinner (Berachos 60a). A Jew is supposed to fear sin – but he is not supposed to redefine normal human behavior as a sin so that he can justify being afraid. A Jew is supposed to fear G-d – but he is not supposed to claim God wants him to live in fear of everyone and everything simply to prolong his existence in this world.

The Mishna (Shabbos 2:5) teaches that one may extinguish a candle on Shabbos for one of several reasons, including ruach ra’ah, an evil spirit. Rashi explains that the Mishnah is talking about someone who is tormented by what he sees around him, and when he is in darkness, he is more comfortable.

The Rambam elaborates that some people are tormented by normal human behavior and social company, and extinguishing the light gives them relief. It is such a serious condition that one may violate Shabbos for them.

My fellow Jews, this is the condition that has overtaken almost all of us. We are tormented by normal human behavior and social company, terrified that every breath or touch might kill us. This is not an appropriate reaction to a virus, even to a severe virus. It is a mental illness, and it is destroying us.

It is indeed remotely possible that shaking hands, kissing a Torah, going to work, opening a business, riding a bus, and other such basic human behaviors will indirectly be the cause of our death. However, according to the Torah we are not allowed to worry about such things – even when there is a virus going around.

It is plausible that if we refrain from such normal behaviors, extinguish the candles, and live in darkness that we will prolong our lives. However, we must recognize that those who live like this are mentally ill. It is forbidden to impose mental illness on others. It is forbidden to declare that we must live with paranoia and hysteria for the sake of life. What life?

The vast majority of us have thankfully survived the last year. But something inside most people is dead. May G-d help us wake up and bring the dead back to life.

amother

Ruby

Mon, Mar 01 2021, 12:36 pm

cutestbaby wrote:

Thank you for sharing. It's wonderfully written. And I'm very much in agreement.