Have y’all seen this? I’m horrified.

PeanutMama

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 1:57 pm

Quote:

An expanded nine justice panel of the High Court of Justice ruled on Monday to recognize conversions by the Reform and Masorti (Conservative) movements in Israel for the purposes of citizenship, ending a 15-year legal saga. Eight of the nine justices agreed with all aspects of the landmark ruling, while Justice Noam Sohlberg preferred to delay applying it for 12 months from the swearing in of a new government.
The decision set off a firestorm of criticism from Orthodox political parties who vowed to pass legislation to overturn the ruling and threatened not to enter any coalition without promises to do so, while Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud Party also denounced the ruling. Reform and Masorti leaders as well as liberal and left-wing political parties lauded the decision however calling it a victory for democracy and a blow against the Orthodox religious establishment.
Monday night’s decision was fifteen years in the making, after the Reform and Masorti movements filed a petition to the High Court in 2005 demanding that citizenship be granted to several non-Israeli nationals who converted through their conversion systems in Israel. In 1988, the High Court ruled that non-Orthodox conversions performed outside of Israel must be recognized for the purposes of aliyah and citizenship, but did not extend that recognition to non-Orthodox conversions performed in Israeli itself.
According to the Reform and Masorti movements, they perform only 30 to 40 such conversions every year, approximately ten percent of all non-Orthodox conversions annually. Trying to pre-emptively defray criticism, the High Court said in its ruling Monday night that it had no religious implications and only dealt with the secular-law questions of the right to obtain citizenship.
Further, the justices specifically noted the 15-years in which the Knesset had not acted to resolve the issue as a clear sign that further patience would not help and that, however grudgingly, the judicial branch had to step in to resolve the dispute. The justices wrote that the non-Orthodox movements have well established communities with a Jewish identity in Israel, maintain communal Jewish institutions, conduct conversions in an organized manner, and are part of broader non-Orthodox denominations around the world.
The justices noted that the Knesset extended the Law of Return and Israeli citizenship to converts back in 1970, but had failed since then to define exactly what conversion means and who can perform it. As long as the legislature has not determined otherwise, those who convert in Reform and Conservative communities in Israel should be recognized as Jews for the purpose of the Law of Return, wrote the justices.
Taking a shot at the political class, the justices also said that their ruling only applied as long as the Knesset did not pass a law explicitly denying the Jewishness of non-Orthodox converts, which the Haredi parties in the Knesset have now promised to do. The High Court also noted the extremely lengthy period of time since the petition was first filed and the numerous requests by the state to delay a ruling while it seeks to find a legislative solution.
It said, therefore, that there was no reason to further delay a ruling.
Coming three weeks before elections, has now sparked a huge conflagration between Israel’s political parties and the fallout will have ramifications for Israel’s relationship with Diaspora Jewry, in particular the predominantly non-Orthodox US Jewish community. Netanyahu’s Likud party issued a statement saying that the decision “endangers the Law of Return, and by extension Israel’s foundation “as a Jewish and democratic state.”
Shas leader and Interior Minister Arye Deri called the decision “wrong,” said it would cause “A severe rift among the Jewish people,” and vowed to “amend the law so that only conversion according to Jewish law will be recognized in the State of Israel.”
The heads of United Torah Judaism MK Moshe Gafni and Housing and Construction Minister Ya'acov Litzman made similar promises. “The decision of the High Court to recognize for the first time Reform and Conservative conversions performed in Israel is disastrous for the meaning of the term Jewish state,” they stated.
“Throughout the generations the Jewish people knew how to recognize their religion and faith without forgeries or imitations. That is how it will continue into the future,” the continued and vowed like Deri to pass legislation to override the High Court decision, adding that they would not enter any coalition without promises to pass such a law. Religious Zionist Party leader MK Bezalel Smotrich described the ruling as “outrageous” and said the High Court had exceeded its boundaries.
“No one authorized it [the court] to make decisions on questions of substantive values which touch the heart of of the identity of the State of Israel,” said Smotrich.
Yamina leader MK Naftali Bennett did not respond directly, although a statement put out in the name of the Yamina party criticized the High Court for “interfering in government decisions and forgetting it’s role.” Gidon Saar’s New Hope party said however that it would “study the decision and its consequences,” adding that the ruling was was a result of the “inability of the Netanyahu government to make decisions” and noting that the current government had failed to even discuss recent proposals made by a Netanyahu appointee to resolve the issue.
Chief Rabbis Yitzhak Yosef and David Lau both denounced the ruling, with the former saying the decision “harms the wholeness of the Jewish people,” adding that “What the Reform and Conservatives call conversion is nothing but the forgery of Judaism the meaning of which is the entry of thousands of non-Jews into the Jewish people.” Lau said that “Reform converts and their like are not Jews and non High Court decision will change this fact,” and similarly to Yosef said Israel would be flooded with “non-Jewish immigrants.”
The Reform and Conservative movements have repeatedly insisted that they follow strict guidelines regarding converting non-Israeli nationals and note that they perform just several dozen such conversions every year.
Opposition parties of the center and political Left welcome the decision however. Opposition leader Yair Lapid said that "Israel must have complete equality of rights for all streams of Judaism - Orthodox, Reform or Conservative,” and that “We need to live here together with tolerance and mutual respect.”
Director of the Reform Movement in Israel Rabbi Gilad Kariv who is also, fourth on the Labor party’s electoral list, lauded the ruling, saying the court decision was a boost for democracy and the Jewish character of the state. “The High Court defended the core values of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people and as a democratic state that is obligated to provide freedom of religion and conscience for its people in the verdict,” said Kariv.
“In the ruling the High Court retained the simple fact that since Israel was established the Knesset has avoided giving the Rabbinate a monopoly regarding conversion to Judaism, and we will make sure that this will remain in the future. The decision doesn’t impose anything onto the Rabbinate or onto the Orthodox communities, yet it claims in what should have been obvious: the State of Israel, as the state of the Jewish people, needs to respect the different religious communities within the people equally and without discrimination.” Meretz leader MK Nitzan Horowitz declared that the leaders of the Orthodox political parties no longer had a monopoly over Judaism.
“From now you also do not have the only entry keys to Israel. This is an important step in the dismantlement of the Orthodox monopoly over our lives and great news for Israeli citizens and the entire Jewish world.
Rabbi Seth Farber, director of the Itim religious services organization, said the ruling “rightly respects the diversity of the Jewish community,” but that it was a ruling of the religious establishment’s own making. “It was only necessary because Israel's Chief Rabbinate has created a conversion crisis. One can only hope that going forward, the Rabbinate will provide reasonable conversion alternatives to bring people closer to Jewish tradition, rather than have its hand forced by the civil courts.”
The liberal religious-Zionist organization Neemane'I Torah Va'Avoda said the ruling was “foreseeable due to the long term ultra-Orthodox obstinacy” over conversion.
“It is a pity that when politicians are unable to agree on a solution, they pass it on to the court to do the job in their stead. We hope that the religious-Zionist public will learn their lesson and in future will not hesitate to take the initiative and lead in matters of religion and State.”

I copied and pasted for those imas without internet or access to this site so they can read the article and can chime in.

gonewiththewind1

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:10 pm

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watergirl

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:14 pm

In theory, this should also open up aliyah to those who did not convert via the rabbanut or through one of the few rabbanut approved places; until now, gerim in America who did not convert through the CRC and RCA and maybe one or two others could make aliyah under the law of return. Many frum geirim have gone through the CRC/RCA ONLY so they could in theory make aliyah or their children make aliyah one day... I would assume this would end that stipulation.

ETA - Israel is not a halachic country at this time.

I do not know enough about Israeli law or politics to have more than that as my opinion.

PeanutMama

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:21 pm

I converted under a chareidi chasidish beis din if that makes a difference
Currently married to a nice chasidish man who is also a ger. Also living this lifestyle. I’ve always been religious.

I think personally I’m more concerned about the “who is a jew” part than the citizenship. I don’t live in Israel so maybe I don’t have a right to an opinion.

What if a non religious kohen marries a non orthodox Jewish convert? And their kids or grandkids decide to become frum.
It’s a problem
Orthodox Judaism holds a kohen cannot marry a convert or a divorced woman or someone who’s considered a zonah.
Like I said I’m very orthodox and live in a chasidish community in New York so I hold these types of views. I converted for hashem alone not for myself or others

It’s the way it should be. But it is what it is.
I’ll stop here see what others have to say. Maybe I misunderstood something.

PeanutMama

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:23 pm

watergirl wrote:

That makes sense. Neither do I. But my husband knows plenty and he’s a chossid!!

Thanks!

iyar

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:24 pm

SafeAtLast wrote:

I see why it is problematic but it kind of just gives them citizenship.
It doesn't authenticate their Jewishness.
(Unless it changes things like validating intermarriage in Israel? I was under the impression that it was an option anyways.)
I would think that you as a convert would respect the decision.
What makes you particularly upset about this?

H_n_F has been open with us about the fact she's a convert. She's a real giyores, she's one of us. She's horrified, like many others, that people who undergo fake conversions that don't make them Jewish will now be given the status of Jews. This can easily lead to intermarriage or non Jews marrying Jews without being aware that's happening.
Don't put H_n_F in the same category as people who are not Jewish. She's as Jewish as you and me and all the rest of us.

ETA- I see I posted after you already did H_n_F. I won't delete my post, but I'll let you speak for yourself. I do agree with you about this having the potential to create serious problems unless something is done to reverse the ruling.

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gonewiththewind1

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:24 pm

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gonewiththewind1

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:26 pm

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imasinger

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:27 pm

Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:

What if a non religious kohen marries a non orthodox Jewish convert? And their kids or grandkids decide to become frum.
It’s a problem

This problem has been around for a long time. And has relatively little to do with the current decision you quote.

The rabbanut has also been faced with "fake" conversions -- people who leave Israel, take a course, get a certificate, come back officially halachically Jewish, but not every Israeli beis don accepts the pseudo-frum conversion mills.

This feels more honest.

PeanutMama

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:34 pm

iyar wrote:

This is what I’m concerned and horrified about the most.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:35 pm

I wasn't raised Jewish, but my mom was Jewish, even though she converted to Xianity to marry my dad. I needed a gerus l'chumra, and I went through the Eida Charedis.

Well guess what, that beis din is not recognized by the RCA or the Rabbanut! I spent 2 years in limbo, until I was ready to get married. I went through the Spanish and Portuguese Sephardic Beis Din of London, and they "confirmed" my original gerus. They gave me a certificate to show that I was accepted by them. (The av beis din was our mesader kedushin, and the other members of the beis din were the eidem. It was really special.)

I know so many gerim who have had to be converted through two, or even three batei din before everyone was satisfied! I know one woman who had to dunk 4 different times. We used to joke about her getting waterlogged.

Converts suffer so much needless embarrassment and harassment in their communities. The fact that they don't give up and go away is a real testament to how committed they are to Torah and Hashem.

As with all Orthodox weddings, the rabbis will make sure that both parties are Orthodox, so you don't have to worry about accidentally marrying a Reform convert. If two Conservative gerim want to get married, this isn't going to stop them.

The only real difference, is that fewer people are going to be eloping to Cyprus to get married.

People at the Jewish Agency have their heads spinning when it comes to Aliyah issues. I hope the new ruling will help eliminate some of the red tape and delays.

PeanutMama

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:35 pm

Oh. Guess I misunderstood

watergirl

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:36 pm

imasinger wrote:

Right. Anyone who has a non-kosher conversion and then merits children or grandchildren who become frum - those people will have to undergo a giur l'chumra or a full giur. It happens all the time. This will and does happen now and has for a long time and has nothing to do with this new "victory" in Israel; people learn all the time they thought they were Jewish and found out there was a bump along the road... a tragic thing to learn but there is a fix. I know a number of people who had to undergo a giur l'chumra for this reason.

In regards to Israel, echoing what others said. This is not giving them the status of a Jew. They already believe they have this status. This is just allowing them to make aliyah under the law of return.

iyar

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:37 pm

watergirl wrote:

You're absolutely right. Israel is not a Halachic country. The religious parties do apply pressure to maintain some basic uniformity in laws regarding marriage, divorce and conversion. This is not an attempt to control people who choose not to observe Torah and mitzvos. It's an attempt to maintain the integrity of the Jewish people, to make sure our offspring continue to be Jewish.
If it was true, as SafeatLast said, that this new law only gives people citizenship, you would not have Litzman, Deri and Gafni saying they won't join a coalition with Netanyahu if he doesn't sign into law a bill reversing this ruling. There are close to two million non-Jews who hold Israeli citizenship with full rights of citizens, among them Muslims, Christians, Druze, Baha'I and others. This law is a problem because these non-Jewish people are formally going to be called Jews.

Alternative

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:38 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

The only real difference, is that fewer people are going to be eloping to Cyprus to get married.

I'm not sure about that. These people will not be recognized as Jewish by the rabbanut, and so how will they get married in Israel? Especially if they marry someone recognized as Jewish.
I am not sure their marriages will be recognized here.

watergirl

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:42 pm

iyar wrote:

Formally, yes. Halachically, no. In my mind, this will go into Moshiach's inbox. He will have quite the mess to sort out with this and other issues. I have faith that he can get this done.

SixOfWands

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:46 pm

Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:

These problems always exist.

IMNSHO there comes a point where you just stop looking, and assume that a person who believes she was born Jewish, who was raised Jewish, and who adheres to Judaism, is a Jew, without looking decades in the past.

Or you require everyone to convert. Don't know what that does to kohanim, though. Or Levis, for that matter. If you forced my nephew to convert, would he still be a Levi?

We know someone who had to convert 3 times before Israel accepted it. The first 2 were under well-established beit dins (not in the US). She undertook to keep kosher in a place where its not like every 3rd product in the supermarket has a hecksher, and kashrut is, frankly, not that difficult (speaking as a BT living in a major US city where its just plain old not that hard). I'm glad Israel won't be able to question her again. And if one of your kids should be lucky enough to meet one of her's, you and your rabbis can do your own investigation.

sequoia

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:48 pm

Actually, more people will be going to Cyprus to get married.

iyar

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:52 pm

watergirl wrote:

Formally, yes. Halachically, no. In my mind, this will go into Moshiach's inbox. He will have quite the mess to sort out with this and other issues. I have faith that he can get this done.

I'm sure he can. Until then we want to make sure that when our children, grandchildren or great-grandchildren marry Jews, they're really marrying Jews and not accidentally or unknowingly marrying non-Jews and possibly going on to raise their non-Jewish children as Jews.

watergirl

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:54 pm

Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:

I know nothing about where you yourself converted and it's none of my business (I am not asking or implying anything, please understand that). But are you aware that many chassidish gerim are currently ineligible to make aliyah with their current status? I myself was part of a fully kosher conversion with a close friend, I was there, and I know Israel does not recognize it (and it was in no way chassidish, by the way - this is an issue in general). Being frum, being a Torah Jew with a kosher conversion until now will still not get you Israeli citizenship unless you convert through a beis din the Rabbanut recognizes. This is more upsetting to me than what is going on now to be honest. Maybe this new legislation will change that also. Who knows.