Have y’all seen this? I’m horrified.

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watergirl

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:55 pm

iyar wrote:

I'm sure he can. Until then we want to make sure that when our children, grandchildren or great-grandchildren marry Jews, they're really marrying Jews and not accidentally or unknowingly marrying non-Jews and possibly going on to raise their non-Jewish children as Jews.

1000000000%. I agree. I just do not think this new legislation will change this in a major way. This issue already exists and has been a major problem for a long time already.

Alternative

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:57 pm

watergirl wrote:

I know nothing about where you yourself converted and it's none of my business (I am not asking or implying anything, please understand that). But are you aware that many chassidish gerim are currently ineligible to make aliyah with their current status? I myself was part of a fully kosher conversion with a close friend, I was there, and I know Israel does not recognize it (and it was in no way chassidish, by the way - this is an issue in general). Being frum, being a Torah Jew with a kosher conversion until now will still not get you Israeli citizenship unless you convert through a beis din the Rabbanut recognizes. This is more upsetting to me than what is going on now to be honest. Maybe this new legislation will change that also. Who knows.

I believe that it will change it, and if I am not mistaken, it was also the initial issue that caused this to go to court.

watergirl

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 2:57 pm

Alternative wrote:

I believe that it will change it, and if I am not mistaken, it was also the initial issue that caused this to go to court.

I’ll defer to my initial statement - I truly do not know enough to have any kind of real opinion on this.

PeanutMama

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 3:06 pm

watergirl wrote:

This happened with my husband when he was unmarried except he was not applying for citizenship. All he wanted to do was learn in a Yeshiva in Israel. They rejected him because of his geirus. He did not go through the RCA.
We were both told in our journeys that these types conversions were political, no chasidish rav will accept this kind of conversion. So we did it the regular way, at different times though. My husband converted long before I did, when he was 19 or 20. When I met him he was 25.

I was also told by a few people I’m not “exactly” Jewish because I did not go through the rca. I was insulted and hurt.
It took me a long time to forgive these people.

It’s a big mess.
But yes. I hope that part changes and all chareidi non rca conversions are recognized.

I’m just scared Jews will unknowingly marry non Jews

SixOfWands

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 3:17 pm

iyar wrote:

How?

I did an Ancestry DNA test. It came back 98% European Jewish, 2% Eastern Europe and Russia.

But for all I know, that 2% is because a great great great and lots more greats maternal side grandmother was non-Jewish, and simply passed. We'll never know.

b.chadash

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 3:29 pm

I havent read the whole thread but the very fact that they are lauding this as a "victory for democracy and victory against the orthodox" and the fact that the orthodox have been fighting for years and now plan to fight the ruling tells me enough.

Geulanow

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 3:35 pm

According to the New York Times, this is a ruling about people who have "converted " within Israel. "Israel’s “Law of Return” gives foreign-born Jews, or anyone with a Jewish parent, grandparent or spouse, the automatic right to claim Israeli citizenship. Those who convert to non-Orthodox Judaism in another country have been able to gain Israeli citizenship for decades."
What is sinister about this is that the court can try to make changes in the Rabbanut to include kofrim or do other actions to make Israel more "pluralistic".

Rappel

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 3:39 pm

Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:

I’m just scared Jews will unknowingly marry non Jews

I think I can put your mind to rest there.

Right now, anyone whom has a Jewish grandparent can make aliyah (a rule the secular government put in in wake of the Holocaust definition). That means that there are many non-Jews whom are allowed into Israel. Tack that on to the mess that happened after the Soviet Union fell, and there are a lot of non-Jews in Israel.

However, marriage in Israel happens under the auspices of the rabbanut. Unless you marry outside the country and return, then your marriage needs to be pre-approved by the rabbanut, and their very thorough in their checks. We actually need to backlog and our (very halachic, bh) marriage at some point so our children won't have problems when it's their turn.

My issue with that the supreme court did is that more non-Jews may be let into Israel. More likely, though, this will give the impetus for some real legislation on the issue, defining a ger once and for all for Israel's purposes, and saving a lot of people (us included!) heartache and fear.

Quote:

...As long as the legislature has not determined otherwise, those who convert in Reform and Conservative communities in Israel...

Rappel

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 3:41 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Yes. The Israeli supreme court consists of old, bitter leftists whom despise the fact that their dream state is crumbling and the religious are multiplying.

iyar

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 3:56 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

We might not know, you're right.
We have our responsibility to do as much as we can. The rest we leave up to The One who created us as human beings with limitations.
There may be old problems that crept into the lineage of the Jewish nation. That doesn't mean we're absolved of our obligation to ensure that we don't create new problems.

etky

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 4:10 pm

Rappel wrote:

More likely, though, this will give the impetus for some real legislation on the issue, defining a ger once and for all for Israel's purposes, and saving a lot of people (us included!) heartache and fear.

That is the real Gordian knot that the political system has been sidestepping for 15 years - a failure that has forced the court to finally and reluctantly rule on the civil, administrative aspect of the issue.
What was a 'hot potato' is now a stick of dynamite considering we have elections and inevitably subsequent coalition bargaining coming up in 3 weeks time...

etky

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 4:23 pm

Rappel wrote:

Yes. The Israeli supreme court consists of old, bitter leftists whom despise the fact that their dream state is crumbling and the religious are multiplying.

Neal Hendel, Noam Solberg, David Mintz, Yael Wilner are all Orthodox Jews.
Noam Solberg and David Mintz are even 'mitnachalim'.

WhatFor

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 4:37 pm

I thought the Law of Return applied to anyone who would have been persecuted under the Nuremberg laws. To my understanding, this could have applied to people with a Jewish father, a Jewish spouse, etc. It's not only Jews who are allowed citizenship in Israel. So this new law offers citizenship to a broader group of people who identify as Jewish. Wouldn't they have been persecuted under the Nuremberg laws too? I doubt the Nazis were checking conversion documents to determine if someone was Jewish enough to murder.

sequoia

Tue, Mar 02 2021, 4:46 pm

Obviously.

But nor did conversion to Xtianity deter them. They found Edith Stein in her convent, deported her to Auschwitz, and killed her.

OP, as your own ultra-Orthodox conversion wouldn’t be accepted in Israel, you really should not have a problem with this bill. Also, Jewishness for aliyah purposes has nothing to do with Jewishness for marriage purposes.

ora_43

Wed, Mar 03 2021, 4:17 am

SixOfWands wrote:

We know someone who had to convert 3 times before Israel accepted it. The first 2 were under well-established beit dins (not in the US). She undertook to keep kosher in a place where its not like every 3rd product in the supermarket has a hecksher, and kashrut is, frankly, not that difficult (speaking as a BT living in a major US city where its just plain old not that hard). I'm glad Israel won't be able to question her again. And if one of your kids should be lucky enough to meet one of her's, you and your rabbis can do your own investigation.

That's not what this ruling does.

It doesn't affect the acceptance or non-acceptance of conversions done abroad.

It doesn't affect whether someone is accepted as a Jew in Israel.

It only affects conversions performed in Israel, and the only question is whether the people doing reform conversions will be accepted as non-Jewish Israeli citizens. (as opposed to non-Jewish non-citizens)

heidi

Wed, Mar 03 2021, 4:40 am

sequoia wrote:

This.
When we made aliyah both my DH and I had to prove our Jewishness - both of us are FFB and Jewish forever and ever.
Despite our proving our Jewishness, when DS wanted to get married he had to independently prove his Jewishness- our aliyah proof wasn't enough.
This bill won't affect anyone in any major way.
It's silly to get riled up.
And OP, since you brought it up, yes, if you don't live in Israel, you really shouldn't get involved, let alone be "horrifed" by Israel's internal politics.

BadTichelDay

Wed, Mar 03 2021, 6:04 am

WhatFor wrote:

I'll try to summarize and roll the whole topic up.

Yes. Anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent or a Jewish spouse can receive citizenship under the Law of Return, regardless of whether they are halachically Jewish or not.

In 1988 the Israeli Supreme court ruled that in principle non- orthodox (!) conversions from abroad are also eligible for citizenship, if the convert has converted by a recognized Beit Din and has been a member of a community that is recognized by Israel for at least a year. That extra year is in order to avoid quickie conversions for the sake of citizenship. I personally know 2 cases of unmarried reform converts with no Jewish ancestry who made Aliyah, got citizenship and then, after that, underwent an orthodox giyur in Israel.

The new ruling now affects people who are already inside Israel but not citizens and not otherwise eligible for citizenship, who want to undergo a reform or conservative conversion in Israel. The novelty is that now on grounds of their non-orthodox giyur they can claim citizenhip.
In practical terms this is going to be a very small trickle of people. The reform and conservative communities in Israel are tiny and most of their not halachically Jewish members have either a Jewish father or grandparent or are married to a Jew, so they can get citzenship anyway.

Marriage laws are unaffected by this because in Israel the rabbanut does all Jewish weddings and they check very very well.

Cyprus is used by those who can't get married by the rabbanut on halachic grounds, but people always did that anyway. The new ruling makes no diference.

So, realistically the impact is going to be minimal.

Why is it still a problem?
Because it is part of a bigger long term strategy to undermine the orthodox monopoly of the rabbanut in Israel. It is an attempt to make reform and conservative "equal" to orthodoxy, bit by bit. That is dangerous for the delicately intermeshed fabric of religion and state in Israel. As reform and conservative are tiny in Israel and they are mostly populated by Olim, it is also in some ways a foreign import and not something that mainstream Israeli society wants. Even about secular Israelis it has been said that "the shul they don't go to is orthodox", meaning, for them Judaism is by definition orthodox, even though they opt for not practising it. They have no use for what they see as a watered down foreign version that evolved outside Israel.

Another problem is that this ruling casts maybe a bit more doubt on all converts, including the halachic ones

etky

Wed, Mar 03 2021, 6:22 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

I'll try to summarize and roll the whole topic up.

Yes. Anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent or a Jewish spouse can receive citizenship under the Law of Return, regardless of whether they are halachically Jewish or not.

In 1988 the Israeli Supreme court ruled that in principle conversions from abroad are also eligible for citizenship, including non-orthodox conversions (!), if the convert has converted by a recognized Beit Din and has been a member of a community that is recognized by Israel for at least a year. That is in order to avoid quickie conversions for the sake of citizenship. I personally know 2 cases of unmarried reform converts with no Jewish ancestry who made Aliyah, got citizenship and then, after that, underwent an orthodox giyur in Israel.

The new ruling now affects people who are already inside Israel but not citizens and not otherwise eligible for citizenship, who want to undergo a reform or conservative conversion in Israel. The novelty is that no on grounds of their non-orthodox giyur they can claim citizenhip.
In practical terms this is going to be a very small trickle of people. The reform and conservative communities in Israel are tiny and most of their not halachically Jewish members have either a Jewish father or grandparent or are married to a Jew, so they can get citzenship anyway.

Marriage laws are unaffected by this because in Israel the rabbanut does all Jewish weddings and they check very very well.

Cyprus is used by those who can't get married by the rabbanut on halachic grounds, but people always did that anyway. The new ruling makes no diference.

So, realistically the impact is going to be minimal.

Why is it still a problem?
Because it is part of a bigger long term strategy to undermine the orthodox monopoly of the rabbanut in Israel. It is an attempt to make reform and conservative "equal" to orthodoxy, bit by bit. That is dangerous for the delicately intermeshed fabric of religion and state in Israel. As reform and conservative are tiny in Israel and mostly populated by Olim, it is also in so.e ways a foreign import and not something that mainstream Israeli society wants. Even about secular Israelis it has been said that "the shul they don't go to is orthodox", meaning, for them Judaism is by definition orthodox, even though they opt for not practising it. They have no use for what they see as a watered down foreign version that evolved outside Israel.

Another problem is that this ruling casts maybe a bit more doubt on all converts, including the halachic ones

The ruling is also going to generate an all out war over the definition of what constitutes an Orthodox conversion as there will now be a push to legislate an amendment that calls for recognizing only halachic conversions. This might mean the cancellation of all the current DL ulpanei giyur as well as the IDF Nativ program that operate externally to the Rabbanut which is for all practical purposes a haredi institution that conducts giyur according to extra stringent haredi standards. This will render giyur for many non halachically Jewish Israelis even less attainable.

Alternative

Wed, Mar 03 2021, 6:30 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

Even about secular Israelis it has been said that "the shul they don't go to is orthodox", meaning, for them Judaism is by definition orthodox, even though they opt for not practising it. They have no use for what they see as a watered down foreign version that evolved outside Israel.

That is true, but it's also true that many, many secular Israelis (I would say at least 2/3) are very unhappy with the rabbanut and with their monopoly on marriage and divorce.
Many of them would like the option of being married in Israel by someone other than an Orthodox rabbi.

BadTichelDay

Wed, Mar 03 2021, 6:47 am

Alternative wrote:

Yes, many would like that and civil marriage has been pushed for forever.
But if Israel introduces civil marriage, it will split the nation in two huge groups - halachic Jews and questionable maybe-Jews. Until now, even the most secular Israeli Jews have a chazaka on their status as halachic Jews as long as their parents got married by the rabbanut. A few generations down with civil marriage it would become extremely difficult to determine who's a Jew and it might also lead to an increase in mamzerut if divorced people remarry civilly and no one checks for a get.
It would ruin Israel's identity as a Jewish state. I hope that one never gets through.

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