The Chosen by Chaim Potok

amother

Tangerine

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 12:24 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

All four main characters are mirror images of one another. It’s a bit clunky from a modern reader’s point of view - but works really well within the story. I wonder sometimes if it worked so well for me - because I read the book at such a young age and basically compared it to teen fiction which is always so simplified.

Right, it's like The Catcher in the Rye in that way-- very much a YA book and meant for a teen reader. If you read it for the first time as an adult you won't like it that much.

amother

Teal

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 1:36 pm

leah233 wrote:

Had the story been the other way around and it was the Saunders taking a MO boy -even a troubled one- who was heading towards becoming a major doctor or professor and helping him drop that trajectory and turn him Chasidish, the Malter's would not have perceived that behavior as kindness.

You seem to think that Reuven pulled Danny over to "his side" kicking and screaming. There was no showing anyone the light.
Danny was rebelling and he was begging for help.
Reuven's father and Reuven offered help that Danny asked for. They helped him by supplying books that Danny was asking for. The assumption is that they helped him stay religious. They were not comfortable doing anything being Danny's father's back and were very relieved when the father found out.
Your cynicism is personal and not based on the book.

Raisin

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 1:46 pm

It was ok I guess. In general I find Potoks books a bit heavy and depressing.

I have many more issues with Asher Lev. Only a crucifixion can express suffering in art???? Coming from an artist whose people literally just went through the holocaust.

I didn't feel chabad was very realistically expressed. We had art lessons in my chabad school, there are no issues with art except presumably painting nudes and crucifixions.

chanchy123

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 2:06 pm

The Malters were MO and mitnagdim. But more than that - Reuven’s father was a Talmud scholar that was part of Talmudic criticism school of thought this is a big no no even among some MO. He takes a scholarly approach to studying Talmud. Reuven attends the equivalent of YU and the tension between Modern Orthodoxy and old world European gemara learning is very present in the sequel and the first book discusses the tension between traditional gemara learning and scholarly studying (if I remember correct when they let Danny infer on his own that they believe a portion of gemara was misprinted).
Another important thing about Reuven’s father that I only realised as an adult - he was a Zionist leader. He was a very important Talmudic scholar and Zionist leader. Sort of reminded me of Bentzion Nentanyahu who would have been his contemporary. He was every bit as important and a big deal as the Chassidish Rabbi was in his world.
When I said the book is very much about the Holocaust I meant that while it takes place in America during the time of the Holocaust and hardly references the war at all, it was written after the war and Potok used literary methods to discuss the Holocaust without doing so explicitly (the theme of silence, Rabbi Saunders losing his entire family in the pogroms etc.)

tigerwife

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 2:15 pm

syrima wrote:

The Chosen was a formative book for me ever since I first read it as a teen. I related to the silence of R' Saunders as I had a father who was uncommunicative about emotions, though we did talk (less than I would have liked) about other things. I think that it helped me to find meaning in a relationship that was never going to be the way I wanted it, and to find some peace. In some ways, having a father like I did made me stronger. I also view it as a metaphor to our relationship with our Father in Heaven... when does He speak to us? And isn't that very silence the backdrop for so much of our growth? Growth comes from a perceived lack. If we as parents provide too well and coddle our kids too much, are we denying them growth opportunities?

That’s a very fascinating insight.
I guess I liked the human nature parts of the book, if I focused on the agenda more, I agree that it’s upsetting to have the world read about chassidim through the negative bias of a Zionistic MO teen.

One concept that was interesting was Danny saying he felt trapped (he was next in line to become rebbe, I don’t believe it was about being chassidish but rather the pressure o be a “tzadik”) and then reading Prince Harry’s interview where he said he felt “trapped” lol. People call the children of monarchs or leaders privileged but there is a lot of pressure in knowing your future self must be perfect in that way. It’s easier to strive for greatness if no one else expects it.

tigerwife

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 2:16 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

I didn’t catch on to that. I guess this is why they were called apikorsim. I disliked the indication that chassidim call anyone unlike themselves apikorsim.

mochamix18

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 2:32 pm

tigerwife wrote:

I just finished this book and would love to discuss it.
I’m going to include spoilers so if you still want to read the book, don’t read this thread!

First of all, do you think he gave a fair portrayal of chassidim?

I’m curious if anyone knows if these points are accurate-
Was it acceptable for chassidish boys to go to a college (even a Jewish one) in the forties?
What’s the deal with “silence” communication? Does/did this exist in any rebbish lines? I am familiar with 2 rebbes only but they are/were very warm and caring to their sons. The concept is interesting but I’m wondering if it’s completely made up.
I think it’s a pity that Danny thought he could only be a practicing psychologist if he was clean shaven.
What did you think of Reb Saunders at the end? Like him, hate him, ambivalent?

Also, I keep thinking if only I was so intellectual and studied mathematics and psychology (not to mention new languages) in my free time!

All in all, it was a very well-done, emotional piece on friendship and father/son relationships.

One of my favorite authors from my adolescence Smile

. I haven’t read The Chosen in many years but definitely read it and and Davida’s Harp a number of times when I was younger. Also My Name is Asher Lev which although a novel is considered semi autobiographical, which brings me to a point which may answer some of your questions. All Chaim Potok’s books have elements that are loosely based on his life in which he grew up chassidish and was torn between that world towards which he felt a very strong and warm connection and his desire for more secular pursuits, which included his writing and learning at JTS (not secular but he got conservative smicha and I forget if that as done with his father’s Bracha or not). My point is, it’s not a question of is his portrayal of chasidim fair or not. His portrayal is based in his personal experience which can be colored by emotions among other things. Beyond that I don’t really feel qualified to weigh in on your other questions as this isn’t my hashkafic background. I do recommend reading his other books if you haven’t already as it really gives you a full bodied picture of who Chaim Potok was as a person.

tigerwife

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 2:36 pm

mochamix18 wrote:

One of my favorite authors from my adolescence Smile

Interesting. I read the book randomly without knowing about the controversy or his background, but this definitely clarifies a lot. Honestly, I don’t think I’ll be reading his other books as they all seem to have this theme and I’ve had enough for now.

chanchy123

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 3:58 pm

tigerwife wrote:

I didn’t catch on to that. I guess this is why they were called apikorsim. I disliked the indication that chassidim call anyone unlike themselves apikorsim.

Yes this is why they called them apikorsim, I think the sequel deals with this more in depth. The Rabbi at YU makes Reuven learn Talmud the traditional way in order to resolve issues that are easily solved according to scientific research tools.

SpoilerAlert

If I remember correctly Reuven ends up becoming a Conservative Rabbi after he gets YU semicha but goes OTD. Or something along those lines.

tigerwife

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 5:33 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

Wow, that’s depressing. I can see why so many people have an adverse reaction to the book when the writer just plays the same theme again and again.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 6:22 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

The only thing I remember about the sequel is a scene where Danny, Reuven and the girl are together in a swimming pool..I remember thinking, what happened to the "tzaddik" that Reb Saunders was molding? Did Danny stay frum?

mochamix18

Mon, Mar 08 2021, 11:12 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Speaking of Belva Plain, are her books clean? (I have one in my ebay cart but IIRC many of the descriptions I read sounded too full of zexual scandals. I probably read them in high school too, but under my covers with a flashlight. Then in school I caught up on my sleep : )

Like most paperback novels if that’s sort probably not. Under the covers with a flashlight 😂. Talks about nostalgia.

chanchy123

Tue, Mar 09 2021, 2:37 am

OMG I also read Belva Plain as a teen, during boring classes in school and at bed at night (but not with a flashlight - I had my own room at the time).
But do you know what? I can remember all these little details from The Chosen but cannot think of any title of a Belva Plain book, not to mention plot lines.

ETA -
I just googled Belva Plain and wow, yes, I read so many of her books and I loved them. I wonder what I'd think of them now as an adult. If I remember correctly, they were also pretty much very similar to one another.

Last edited by chanchy123 on Tue, Mar 09 2021, 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total

mochamix18

Tue, Mar 09 2021, 2:41 am

tigerwife wrote:

I stand corrected, he didn’t grow up chasddish. I did read somewhere that many themes were loosely based on his life. I met him once when I was younger at a family simcha. He was a lifelong friend of my uncle’s mechutan.