Who said Hashem wants it to be this way?

amother

Wed, Mar 10 2021, 5:29 pm

In the threads about the get issue, I saw a few posters comment that they are turned off by Instagrammers who bash our rabbanim and the Torah. They claim that Hashem designated the get process to be conducted this way and making claims that rabbanim arent doing enough is bashing the Torah.

When I was in seminary, I learned that Hashem gave the Torah specifically to humans and not the malachim because halacha should be determined by human beings on Earth. Torah Lo Bashamayim. The Torah is dynamic and applied not through Hashem in shamayim, but given to human beings to apply it to their life. The rabbanim have the power to apply the Torah to their generation. Thats how we have modifications to halacha (shabbos elevators, shabbos lamps etc). Because rabbanim are allowed to use the needs of the people in determining halacha. Thats also why there are always different opinions in halacha by community, and they are all perfectly acceptable.

So when posters complain about instagrammers who "bash" rabbanim, you are looking at it wrongly. The rabbanim actually do HAVE the power to determine the halacha and apply it to our generation as appropriate. the Torah is not stagnant.

amother

Aqua

Wed, Mar 10 2021, 5:37 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Rabbanim who had that power were the Sanhedrin ones, not nowadays rabbis. We have to follow halacha, and rabbis can make mistakes they are human.

b.chadash

Wed, Mar 10 2021, 5:56 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Rabbanim who had that power were the Sanhedrin ones, not nowadays rabbis. We have to follow halacha, and rabbis can make mistakes they are human.

There is a concept of "Yiftach b'doro k'Shmuel b'doro", which means that each generation gets the greats they deserve. We need to revere our leaders the same way as the previous generations revered Rav Moshe and the Chazon Ish, etc.

Rabbonim can make mistakes. Rabbi Akiva made a big mistake about Bar Kochva, wrongly crowning him as melech HaMoshiach. Even Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes.

But the halachic process for gittin is codified in Gemara and Shulchan Aruch. Rabbonim cannot invent halachos that don't exist.

The get process was designed to protect women. Hard to believe in 2021, but that was the case for most of history.

There are definitly many Rabbonim today who are working hard to address the issue of get refusers. Our job is not to bash Rabbonim c"v, but to daven for the agunos and to do whatever we are supposed to do, al pi halacha.

Last edited by b.chadash on Wed, Mar 10 2021, 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Mar 10 2021, 6:11 pm

b.chadash wrote:

There is a concept of "Yiftach b'doro k'Shmuel b'doro", which means that each generation gets the greats they deserve. We need to revere our leaders the same way as the previous generations revered Rav Moshe and the Chazon Ish, etc.

Rabbonim can make mistakes. Rabbi Akiva made a big mistake about Bar Kochva, wronly crowning him as melech HaMoshiach. Even Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes.

But the halachic process for gittin is codified in Gemara and Shulchan Aruch. Rabbonim cannot invent halachos that don't exist.

The get process was designed to protect women. Hard to believe in 2021, but that was the case for most of history.

There are definitly many Rabbonim today who are working hard to address the issue of get refusers. Our job is not to bash Rabbonim c"v, but to daven for the agunos and to do whatever we are supposed to do, al pi halacha.

It was designed to protect dependent women from men who want to dump them for a newer model. The kesubah is supposed to ensure financial support, etc. It was not designed to protect independent women who want to move on with their lives (from abusers, etc). In fact, I don't know any woman who was paid her kesubah money. It is one of the assumed concessions and is not even up for negotiation.

If halacha can come up with solutions for issues that matter to the economy (heter iska, mechiras chametz), convenience (eiruv on shabbos) and men's freedom (heter meah rabanim), maybe it's time to come up with a solution for trapped women. Maybe my belief in the koach haTorah and the wisdom of our Torah giants is naive?

b.chadash

Wed, Mar 10 2021, 6:48 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I agree with you. I think that rabbonim are trying to come up with solutions. The Halachic Prenup was introduced around 25 years ago I believe, to address this issue. And apparently it has been a very big success. The halachic prenup has not been accepted in the more right wing circles at the time, but I understand that the yeshivish rabbonim are now revisting that issue due to the need in these circles as well.

I imagine that it's only a matter of time that it will be commonplace and mandatory for all couples in the litvish/yeshivish circles to sign a halachic prenup.

As far as a fool-proof solution on the level of the heter iska, I dont see that happening since the heter iska is from the days of the gemara. But the halachic pre-nup is very close to a perfect soultion.

amother

Mint

Wed, Mar 10 2021, 7:21 pm

I'll keep it short because I'm tired, but I think op you're mischaracterizing the power and role of the rabbis.

Hashem gave two toras on har sinai, the written, and the oral, which is the exact interpretation of the written. The oral was passed down orally, rabbi to student, for many generations.

Towards the end of the second bhm"k, due to the plethora of tzoros meted out by the Romans, doubt and differing opinions crept in. Suddenly there were different schools of thought and machlokes in halochos.

But it has to be stressed, the machlokes was always what the correct interpretation is, as was handed down on har sinai. Chazal never invented their own interpretations or played fast and loose with the torah. This wasn't their role, nor did they have the authority to do so.

Admittedly there are some cases where the torah only gives a general diktat, and it's up to Chazal to define the exact parameters. An example of this is working on chol hamoed. Hashem said some types of work are permitted and some prohibited, and He left it up to Chazal to define which is which. But these examples are the exceptions, not the rule.

At various points during the times of Chazal, and later, after the gemara was canonized, the rabbis adopted various criteria to decide how to pasken. So for example whenever there is a machlokes between beis shammai and beis hillel, almost invariably the halacha was determined according to beis hillel.

Rabbis can use the various rules and criteria of halacha to determine a psak when new shailos and circumstances arise. An example of this is a Shabbos elevator, which some rabbis permit, because of how they've interpreted the existing halachic framework. But it's impossible for all the rabbis in the world to permit for example lighting a fire on Shabbos, eating pork, or changing the way halacha prescribes a get becomes kosher.

b.chadash

Wed, Mar 10 2021, 9:17 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

This is correct and very well written.
The challenge Rabbonim have is NOT to find a solution to free a woman without a valid get, because that is not something they could do. We have an existing framework of halachos with which they need to operate. The challenge is finding ways to prevent husbands from withholding the get, to make it difficult or not worth their while to go down that route. Over the years, the rabbonim have found various ways to convince husbands to give a get. The halachic prenup I believe fines the husband every day (or maybe every week, I'm not sure) so he is incentivized to give the get.

amother

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 4:04 am

For the following examples, these changes to Halacha are considered loopholes and acceptable:

Can’t charge interest? Heter Iska.
Can’t work the land on shmita? Heter Mechira.
Can’t carry on shabbos? Eruv Chatzeiros.
Can’t walk far on shabbos? Eruv Tchumin.
Can’t enforce a loan after Shmita? Pruzbol.
Can’t own chometz on pesach? Mechiras Chametz (with a bonus Bitul)
Can’t cook on Yom Tov for shabbos? Eruv Tavshilin
Promised to do something? Hataras nedarim
First born that has to fast on erev pesach? Siyum
Can’t turn the light on during shabbos? Shabbos lamp.
Can’t take the steps on shabbos? Shabbos elevator.
Want to eat meat during the nine days? Siyum
A woman won’t accept a get? Heter mayah rabbonim
A man won’t give a get? Sorry you’re trying to change halacha.

Why are these loopholes for halacha that were decreed by rabbonim acceptable yet for the get issue it’s not allowed because now it’s considered “changing Halacha”?
Genuinely curious how that is.

amother

Green

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 4:22 am

b.chadash wrote:

All halochos are codified. But the reality is that there seems to be a way around almost everything that would otherwise be very difficult or uncomfortable. The torah explicitly doesn't allow lending money for interest. So we have a heter iska that structures the loan slightly differently and now interest is allowed but we call it something else. I know someone who owns a business worth millions of dollars. It's in healthcare and must be open on shabbos. Every Friday he "sells" his business to a gentile and buys it back after shabbos so as not to conduct business on shabbos. We don't flinch when we hear things like this because they are so commonplace.

If 300 years ago the rabbanim would have said, ok, only a man can divorce his wife but the torah doesn't mention annulling a marriage, we all would have thought it's reasonable if the rabbanim would have instituted a rule that a woman who wants out of a marriage can retroactively annul her marriage. I don't see how this is different from the many other halocos that are codified yet we manage to get completely around them.

SuperWify

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 5:51 am

b.chadash wrote:

I don’t understand this. If a guy doesn’t want to give a get he won’t care about paying a fine either.

I’ve heard rabanim are planning a conditional get to be drafted before a couple is married. If one of the conditions applies after marriage (ie. He cheats, he gets lost at war ect.) thrn the get applies.

sushilover

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 6:33 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The agunah issue is horrible and I daven every day that a solution is found. I understand (though don't condone) the group who were caught a few years ago beating up men who refused gets. I want to do the same, to be honest. In fact I would do worse.

Your examples aren't applicable though.

Can’t charge interest? Heter Iska.
All a heter iska is a document which changes a loan into a partnership. You can't change marriage into something else.

Can’t work the land on shmita? Heter Mechira. This is very controversial. Many many rabanim hold that it is assur. Plus, this is a document which transfers ownership to another person. How would this apply to marriage?

Can’t carry on shabbos? Eruv Chatzeiros.
Halacha dictates that one can carry in a gated area. Shlomo Hamelech instituted the idea that a string could function as a symbolic gate. Shlomo Hamelech I'm sure was aware of the issue of agunos. Why didn't he come up with a better solution? It's not because he didn't care, it's because this issue is so complicated and there is no easy "loophole".

Can’t walk far on shabbos? Eruv Tchumin.
Same as above.

Can’t enforce a loan after Shmita? Pruzbol.
Public loans are not nullified after shmitta. The tanoiim had to grapple with an issue which involved two mitzvos d'oreisa in conflict. So bais din took responsibility for private loans.I don't see how this can apply to marriage.

Can’t own chometz on pesach? Mechiras Chametz (with a bonus Bitul)

Again a lot of these issues are about transferring ownership. What ownership can you transfer in a marriage?
Bitul chometz is being more stringent, not less. You are not responsible for chometz you don't know about. The rabbanim wanted us to be even more careful and still nullify those crumbs we aren't aware of.

Can’t cook on Yom Tov for shabbos? Eruv Tavshilin
Again, see the other eruvin.

Promised to do something? Hataras nedarim
This doesn't nullify any contacts between you and another person.

First born that has to fast on erev pesach? Siyum
Fasting is an accepted minhag, not comparable to issue of kosher marriage which is a y'harog v'al y'avor and the cornerstone of judaism.

Can’t turn the light on during shabbos? Shabbos lamp.

Can’t take the steps on shabbos? Shabbos elevator.
The halachos didn't change. Modern rabbanim can apply halachos to modern problems but they cannot and do not change halacha.

Want to eat meat during the nine days? Siyum
Aveilus laws are changed during a seudas mitzvah. This isn't a new idea or a loophole. It's part of the hilchos aveilus.

A woman won’t accept a get? Heter mayah rabbonim
Halachicly a man could marry multiple wives until rabbeinu Gershom. Having a heter on a cherem is not comparable to finding a heter for y'harog v'al y'avor!

Of course, these are overly simplified answers. You could spend a lifetime learning to fully understand all of the above "heterim". The rabbanim I know have done so and they are not cruel and uncaring. The fact that there is no easy fix for agunos is because there is no easy fix for agunos.