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How to Respond to Disrespect in Young Children
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:00 am
luckymom1 wrote:
In the moment- "wow, is hear you saying No to me. Oh wow. Something is going on. I'm here to listen. Yes I see you really don't want to xyz. Ugh its so hard when mommy asks you to do something while you're playing. Etc..."

Once s/he is calm, "Earlier today you yelled no and called me mean. I don't like being called mean and also, screaming no isn't respectful. How about when I ask you to dosomething difficult you ask me back another option- like can I have another minute? I will also try to discuss things with you beforehand when I am able.


And your child continues to refuse to listen to you and call you names.

Your response is....?
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amother




Black
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:10 am
#BestBubby wrote:
For thousands of years, punishment has worked in decreasing bad behavior.

Do you deny that children in past generations were much more respectful then children today?


There may have been many different factors that contributed to that. I’m not sure the punishments were what made that happen.

Do you know for a fact that it was the punishing in previous generations that caused the children to behave?

If so, you have any clarity as to what punishment did to teach those children and how it helped them learn how to behave? What the positive effect of the punishment was? Do you know if there were any negative effects?

Why do you think researchers believe that punishment does not work as an effective teaching method for today’s children?
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amother




Black
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:12 am
#BestBubby wrote:
And your child continues to refuse to listen to you and call you names.

Your response is....?


I’m assuming your response would be to punish, and I’m wondering how that would help the child learn to be respectful long term.
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amother




Bisque
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:13 am
luckymom1 wrote:
In the moment- "wow, is hear you saying No to me. Oh wow. Something is going on. I'm here to listen. Yes I see you really don't want to xyz. Ugh its so hard when mommy asks you to do something while you're playing. Etc..."

Once s/he is calm, "Earlier today you yelled no and called me mean. I don't like being called mean and also, screaming no isn't respectful. How about when I ask you to dosomething difficult you ask me back another option- like can I have another minute? I will also try to discuss things with you beforehand when I am able. I know you have a need for understanding too.
Then I'd LISTEN. And collaborate.


I gather you don't have a children who easily anger, or have gone through a defiant stage. Those words would go in one ear, out the other faster than you can finish saying them.
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luckymom1




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:13 am
#BestBubby wrote:
And your child continues to refuse to listen to you and call you names.

Your response is....?


I would go back to the drawing board and figure out which need it is that isn't being met in him.
Yes, I know you can keep saying what if it continues. All I can say is I've never had that experience, of an "issue" not resolving,, after working alongside my kids, for my kids.
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amother




Black
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:14 am
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
I gather you don't have a children who easily anger, or have gone through a defiant stage. Those words would go in one ear, out the other faster than you can finish saying them.


And how would punishing help the child to be respectful long term?
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luckymom1




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:16 am
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
I gather you don't have a children who easily anger, or have gone through a defiant stage. Those words would go in one ear, out the other faster than you can finish saying them.


Oh trust me I have, and they felt listened to and safe in their sharing. Baruch Hashem I have found this way of parenting. I cannot take all the credit or even most. I am grateful to the Ultimate Rachman and Loving Father. All I try to do is emulate Him.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:19 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
I’m assuming your response would be to punish, and I’m wondering how that would help the child learn to be respectful long term.


You didn't answer what YOUR response is.

Waiting....
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:21 am
luckymom1 wrote:
I would go back to the drawing board and figure out which need it is that isn't being met in him.
Yes, I know you can keep saying what if it continues. All I can say is I've never had that experience, of an "issue" not resolving,, after working alongside my kids, for my kids.


And I have never had to punish my kids either.

But other people have really hard kids.
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amother




Bisque
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:28 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
And how would punishing help the child to be respectful long term?


It's consequences of his actions. And the respect long term will come from the conversations following the consequences.
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amother




Bisque
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:31 am
luckymom1 wrote:
Oh trust me I have, and they felt listened to and safe in their sharing. Baruch Hashem I have found this way of parenting. I cannot take all the credit or even most. I am grateful to the Ultimate Rachman and Loving Father. All I try to do is emulate Him.


Then you really haven't had such children. I was once in your shoes, then a son of mine was born. Only then did I understand what other people were trying to say.

There is NO one way that works for every child. Some children need a bit toughness involved. A soft approach doesn't work for everyone. A mother's instinct is more valuable than anything.

(B"H, that a child is a well adjusted, happy, and RESPECTFUL, young adult.)
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 12:47 am
#BestBubby wrote:
You didn't answer what YOUR response is.

Waiting....


My response is “that’s not a nice thing to say to your Ima”. If they keep going at it and they are starting to get to me I tell them I need a time out. I go to my room take some deep breaths, say some Tehillim and come out when I feel calm. This usually works if it doesn’t I will calmly remind her of my original response. I have a daughter just like this. In my other posts I was referring to my son. Different methods work for him. After she’s calmed down I try to talk to her about what might be bothering her and I remind her that I love her etc. I always daven for the right words during and after. I try to emulate my parents but I feel they were so much more patient. Hopefully I’ll get there one day.
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amother




Black
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 3:58 am
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
Because occasionally, and I stress occasionally, the only thing that gets a child to cooperate if he fears the consequences. You can validate and emphasize all you want, but fear of a (fair) consequence may give him pause.

You can have an angry child screaming and calling you all kinds of names in front of all the other children. You can emphasize and validate all you want, but when he is in that mode, it goes in one ear out the other. But if he knows he will end up in his room, away from all his toys, that may calm him down quicker. And then later on in the day, you sit down with him and discuss what happened, and suggest better modes of handling the situation.

And most importantly, you reward him when he utilizes any of those modes.


#BestBubby wrote:
oookaaay....

So child refuses to listen to parent, says NO! Calls Mommy Crazy, etc.

You have explained many times that this behavior is wrong and TAUGHT child how to ask for
what he wants Respectfully but he chooses NOT to.

Your response is...???


#BestBubby wrote:
You didn't answer what YOUR response is.

Waiting....


I’d like to answer both of you. With a megilla 🙈 but it’s not a one-foot answer.

So we all agree that we would like to teach our child to have ‘self control’.

When a child feels a strong feeling, if he doesn’t have a way to calm himself down, he’ll often act in a ‘bad’ behavior to release some of that feeling and communicate it. To the child, this happens so quickly that the feeling and behavior are completely mixed together. So child feels angry-says “I hate you mommy!”

Self-control means that a child can feel the strong feeling, take a pause to calm down, and then maybe respond with a better behavior. So self-control is really about separating the bad feelings from the bad behavior, and then learning to put a pause between them so we can calm down. This is called self regulation.

How can we teach children to do this? There are many different ways! But punishment is not one of them. Punishment (or in its more pc form ‘consequencing) does not teach the child any effective skill how to self regulate. Punishment actually shows your child that you as mother do not see the difference between their feeling and their behavior. It also leaves the child alone with their huge feeling, essentially abandoning our child in his most vulnerable time. (True especially for time out).

Here is one way to teach a child to self regulate.. There are many ways I’m sure, this one resonates with me - but also depends on the situation and child.

So if my child were to scream (yes in front of other kids) “I hate you Mommy! You’re the worst mommy!” Does he mean that he hates me? Does he not know that it’s inappropriate or chutzpadig to say that? Does he need me to “explain him that this behavior is wrong”? Of course he knows it’s wrong! My child is just using the only way he knows to get me to understand just how strong his feeling is.

So my first thought would be - what feeling is under this behavior? What is feeling so overwhelming for my child that the only way he can communicate /release the feeling is by using inappropriate language?

Then I would tell him, “wow! Those are really big words. You must be feeling so so upset (or other feeling) to use such strong words. Wow! You’re feeling really angry.” I’d say this as long as it takes. The child usually will respond by saying “yes! I’m angry! I hate you.” And I’d keep going back to noticing the feeling under the behavior.

What I’m doing is - I’m showing the child that I see his feeling and behavior as two separate things. This will teach him to start doing that himself. At the same time, I am validating his feeling, showing him I “get” him, which research (and personal experience) shows is the quickest way to help someone calm down.

Once the child can separate the feeling from the behavior, he can start creating a small pause between the feeling and behavior, and then start stretching that pause to give him time to calm down before he acts on the feeling.

I would not try to teach the child anything about his behavior while he is upset. Research has shown how the learning part of the brain literally shuts down when a child is dysregulated.

Later on, once the child is calm, I’d probably say something like, “wow! You were feeling so angry before! It felt like you just had to use big words. What are some other things we can do when we’re angry? I’m also so angry sometimes, here’s what I do....” and try to get creative with the child. But that is only after we separated the feeling from the behavior.
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amother




Black
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 4:16 am
In the past few pages of this thread, Ive asked what the positive benefit of punishment is for the child - how it helps the child learn skills for self control.
No one answered the question.
Does anyone want to?

Research shows there is no positive effect of punishment, and that even if there is something we can “accomplish” by punishing, there are definitely better ways to do it. So why do we hold so strongly to the idea that punishing is necessary for discipline? I’d like to suggest a concept.

Punishment does not have any positive effect for our child. However it does have a good short term effect for us mothers. Sometimes we mothers get so overwhelmed by our child’s behavior and we just need it to stop. Sometimes punishment is the only way we can see it stopping quickly.

However in this case, the punishment is not a discipline tactic. It’s simply a way for us mothers to calm down an overwhelming situation.

But we mothers are loathe to admit that we are doing this for ourselves. It’s for the child!!! The child has to learn!!! If we admit to ourselves that punishments don’t teach, can only harm, and that there are other better ways to teach, then we may have to use parenting methods that won’t get us those seemingly quick results that punishing does, or risk feeling selfish.

Of course sometimes it seems like

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
You can emphasize and validate all you want, but when he is in that mode, it goes in one ear out the other. But if he knows he will end up in his room, away from all his toys, that may calm him down quicker.


But why is the goal to calm him down quicker? The goal is to teach the child how to calm himself down. Getting him to ‘calm down quicker’ is good for the parent. Not good for teaching the child.

As parents sometimes we will make decisions in our own better interests against the best interest of our child, and that’s okay! But don’t call it discipline, or teaching your child anything....
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bigsis144




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 7:47 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
I’d like to answer both of you. With a megilla 🙈 but it’s not a one-foot answer.

So we all agree that we would like to teach our child to have ‘self control’.

When a child feels a strong feeling, if he doesn’t have a way to calm himself down, he’ll often act in a ‘bad’ behavior to release some of that feeling and communicate it. To the child, this happens so quickly that the feeling and behavior are completely mixed together. So child feels angry-says “I hate you mommy!”

Self-control means that a child can feel the strong feeling, take a pause to calm down, and then maybe respond with a better behavior. So self-control is really about separating the bad feelings from the bad behavior, and then learning to put a pause between them so we can calm down. This is called self regulation.

How can we teach children to do this? There are many different ways! But punishment is not one of them. Punishment (or in its more pc form ‘consequencing) does not teach the child any effective skill how to self regulate. Punishment actually shows your child that you as mother do not see the difference between their feeling and their behavior. It also leaves the child alone with their huge feeling, essentially abandoning our child in his most vulnerable time. (True especially for time out).

Here is one way to teach a child to self regulate.. There are many ways I’m sure, this one resonates with me - but also depends on the situation and child.

So if my child were to scream (yes in front of other kids) “I hate you Mommy! You’re the worst mommy!” Does he mean that he hates me? Does he not know that it’s inappropriate or chutzpadig to say that? Does he need me to “explain him that this behavior is wrong”? Of course he knows it’s wrong! My child is just using the only way he knows to get me to understand just how strong his feeling is.

So my first thought would be - what feeling is under this behavior? What is feeling so overwhelming for my child that the only way he can communicate /release the feeling is by using inappropriate language?

Then I would tell him, “wow! Those are really big words. You must be feeling so so upset (or other feeling) to use such strong words. Wow! You’re feeling really angry.” I’d say this as long as it takes. The child usually will respond by saying “yes! I’m angry! I hate you.” And I’d keep going back to noticing the feeling under the behavior.

What I’m doing is - I’m showing the child that I see his feeling and behavior as two separate things. This will teach him to start doing that himself. At the same time, I am validating his feeling, showing him I “get” him, which research (and personal experience) shows is the quickest way to help someone calm down.

Once the child can separate the feeling from the behavior, he can start creating a small pause between the feeling and behavior, and then start stretching that pause to give him time to calm down before he acts on the feeling.

I would not try to teach the child anything about his behavior while he is upset. Research has shown how the learning part of the brain literally shuts down when a child is dysregulated.

Later on, once the child is calm, I’d probably say something like, “wow! You were feeling so angry before! It felt like you just had to use big words. What are some other things we can do when we’re angry? I’m also so angry sometimes, here’s what I do....” and try to get creative with the child. But that is only after we separated the feeling from the behavior.


This is a Megillah SO worth reading!!! You expressed this so clearly, with logic and compassion.

Thank you so much.

“The Whole-Brain Child” is a good book to see more research on this topic.
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dankbar




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 8:27 am
Ruchel Weiss's courses teach how to prevent/remove the power struggle with a defiant child.
Basically to replace the negative emotional connection with mom & child, to a positive one.
It's changing mom's emotions towards child's negative behavior, which only happens in order to have the connection with mom & stir her emotions.
For some children explanations, rewards & punishment don't work at all.

I would say, I am willing to listen to what you have to say, but only when you are calm & tell me in a respectful manner.

If child told me "I hate you" I would say, "too bad because "I love you".

If a child would tell me " You are the worst mom", I would say "You are welcome to find a better one"

Sometimes humor works.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 8:31 am
If a child would tell me " You are the worst mom", I would say "You are welcome to find a better one"

I do this too. Sometimes I ask them why they think I’m mean.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 10:03 am
If the kinder gentler way works, great!

But if it doesn't?
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amother




Orange
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 10:03 am
Natural consequences works best in our house. Moishy, please go sit at the dinner table and eat. No I’m busy. Ok now is the time to eat. I am not warming up the food later. He comes late, he eats the food cold.
Moishy, time to do your homework. No I’m not doing it. Now’s the time I’m free to help you , later on I won’t be available. Does homework later, doesn’t get help. Doesn’t do homework, then faces whatever consequences from the teacher/school.

Say it once or twice and then let them face the consequence.
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behappy2




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Mar 16 2021, 10:12 am
I do the "I can't hear you" spiel for kids who are chutzpadik whiny, out of bad habit.

If it's out of pain I tell them that it makes me sad, feel bad. I build up their empathy. Sometimes I will say "I know you're upset and things are hard but I need you to talk nicely to me" especially if things are getting out of hand.

You need to adress it from where it's coming from and bad habits need to be broken.
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