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How to Respond to Disrespect in Young Children
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little neshamala




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 6:12 pm
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
I want to support you in that we used to use many of the gentle parenting techniques with my very mild ASD son. His behaviors became worse with time. We called in the help of a behavioral therapist who convinced us to stop using methods like collaborative problem solving, which were translating to him as a way to manipulate and barter whenever he didn't get what he wanted. We learned to tell him "No arguing back," and "we are so sorry x didn't work out the way you wanted it to, you are allowed to be angry, but we don't owe you a compensation.". He still tantrums, but learned to walk to another room to let out his anger privately. We no longer feel like slaves to his demands, WE are in charge. The gentle parenting, tons of empathy, collaborative problem solving work with my daughters, but NOT with my son. He needed to learn that his parents are in charge and life doesn't owe him complete gentleness at all times. I wish you hatzlacha finding the parenting method that works for this child!


Your new approach actually sounds exactly like what gentle parenting is about.
Your old approach seems like you were a doormat instead of a parent.
Gentle parenting does not mean sitting by without enforcing limits and rules.
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professor




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 6:15 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
Are you yeshivish or jpf? If so, can we just acknowledge there’s a lot of chutzpah the kids see modeled at school at this age. It’s a widespread problem. Sarah Chana Radcliffe mentioned the chutzpah problem in her Mishpacha article this Shabbos. She explicitly said that many parents are afraid to be too firm with their kids out of fear it’ll turn them off of yiddishkeit (and I believe the same is true with rabbeim, moros, teachers at least in my experience). The kids get away with a lot at school and it makes our job at home harder.

My kids are teens and young adults now. Two have adhd and one has odd. Parenting them has been a lot of work. But we’re BH seeing beautiful peiros. Please, op, do yourself and your son a favor and set firm boundaries about how you allow your children to speak to you. Sarah Chana Radcliffe has good books and classes that work well for our community.


Good post. I have similar issues and, if I always follow everything in the book there can still be challenges. Don't beat yourself up if the children Don't respond exactly like the book says. We have to show up and do our best. We can't do better than our best, can we?
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amother




Pewter
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 6:48 pm
little neshamala wrote:
Your new approach actually sounds exactly like what gentle parenting is about.
Your old approach seems like you were a doormat instead of a parent.
Gentle parenting does not mean sitting by without enforcing limits and rules.


No, we were never doormats. We are both in chinuch, and well versed in parenting and teaching/behavioral approaches. With our son, who had the rigid, "stuck thinking," explosive anger and tantrums, and difficulty with any disappointments (all characteristic of children with neurological and processing differences), we originally thought dafka we need to see things from his point of view, empathize a ton, help him develop self awareness and the tools to negotiate so that he and others around him can feel satisfied. Sounds great, right? Until it made his behavior worse because some children are not ready to process that high level thinking needed for these skills. Simply saying "Charlie, stop arguing back!" and teaching him to leave the room to have a tantrum did more for his self awareness than any empathy or conversation about trying to find solutions, etc. My son is special needs, and all children require different approaches. I'm so happy for you that you've found your approach!
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 6:56 pm
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
No, we were never doormats. We are both in chinuch, and well versed in parenting and teaching/behavioral approaches. With our son, who had the rigid, "stuck thinking," explosive anger and tantrums, and difficulty with any disappointments (all characteristic of children with neurological and processing differences), we originally thought dafka we need to see things from his point of view, empathize a ton, help him develop self awareness and the tools to negotiate so that he and others around him can feel satisfied. Sounds great, right? Until it made his behavior worse because some children are not ready to process that high level thinking needed for these skills. Simply saying "Charlie, stop arguing back!" and teaching him to leave the room to have a tantrum did more for his self awareness than any empathy or conversation about trying to find solutions, etc. My son is special needs, and all children require different approaches. I'm so happy for you that you've found your approach!

Was there a specific method that you followed?
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amother




Pewter
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 7:03 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Was there a specific method that you followed?


No, we worked with a behavioral therapist who watched our parenting, and convinced us to try a more simple, direct approach with our son. The main things he learned were not to constantly argue back (which is what solution finding and problem solving had translated to him), and to walk away and deep breathe when feeling a tantrum or anxiety attack come on. He is doing much better. We also changed our expectation of him from thinking he could feel empathy talk things out instead of tantruming, to giving him space to tantrum. He is four years older now, and we have been able to slowly return to more gentle parenting that we prefer, but we still occasionally remind him not to argue back and to walk away when angry.
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amother




Olive
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 8:33 pm
Zehava wrote:
So you picked up on the fact that if the word no is a bad word while a child is growing up they don’t magically learn to say no once they’re an adult.
When we are children that is when our brains form, everything we learn gets ingrained in us and becomes our inner voice for a lifetime.
From the way you describe that you feel when you see other people’s children talking back to them, your reaction is quite extreme. As in, it triggers you.
Perhaps it’s your inner child who gets upset because you never had the opportunity to feel safe enough to do that with your parents. Just a thought.


Maybe. I had a situation earlier tonight in my house. My 8 year old was washing a pot and she put it on the rack to dry. I noticed some soap bubbles and I asked her to rinse it out. She told me she didn't see any bubbles and will dry it with the dish towl which will take off the bubbles if there are any.
I can't explain to you how angry I felt.
How can my daughter have the chutzpah to not just rinse the pot right away or have the chutzpah to tell me it will be wiped off even if it's there? But then I realized, no it's good, she isn't telling me I'm wrong which would be chutzpahdig. She was sharing her truth, in a respectful way, that she doesn't see bubbles. So I just told her I understand what she is saying and it's possible she did not notice the bubbles I saw, but I would still like for her to rinse out the pot again and she'll get schar for doing it and I appreciate it greatly.
I immediately thought of this thread though because I was so triggered from the experience.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 8:38 pm
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
Maybe. I had a situation earlier tonight in my house. My 8 year old was washing a pot and she put it on the rack to dry. I noticed some soap bubbles and I asked her to rinse it out. She told me she didn't see any bubbles and will dry it with the dish towl which will take off the bubbles if there are any.
I can't explain to you how angry I felt.
How can my daughter have the chutzpah to not just rinse the pot right away or have the chutzpah to tell me it will be wiped off even if it's there? But then I realized, no it's good, she isn't telling me I'm wrong which would be chutzpahdig. She was sharing her truth, in a respectful way, that she doesn't see bubbles. So I just told her I understand what she is saying and it's possible she did not notice the bubbles I saw, but I would still like for her to rinse out the pot again and she'll get schar for doing it and I appreciate it greatly.
I immediately thought of this thread though because I was so triggered from the experience.

You got angry but you didn’t act on it, you took a minute to think. That’s good. That’s perspective.
Many times we get triggered when our kids get to do or say things we would’ve gotten beaten for. Our inner child says it’s not fair how come he/she gets to do this and I don’t?
Abusive fathers have been known to say “you will now feel what I felt when my father hit me”. Insane, I know.
But we can do better. You are doing better. And that’s nothing short of amazing.
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 9:40 pm
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
No, we worked with a behavioral therapist who watched our parenting, and convinced us to try a more simple, direct approach with our son. The main things he learned were not to constantly argue back (which is what solution finding and problem solving had translated to him), and to walk away and deep breathe when feeling a tantrum or anxiety attack come on. He is doing much better. We also changed our expectation of him from thinking he could feel empathy talk things out instead of tantruming, to giving him space to tantrum. He is four years older now, and we have been able to slowly return to more gentle parenting that we prefer, but we still occasionally remind him not to argue back and to walk away when angry.

This really talks to me, as I’ve been taking the ‘gentler’ approach and it’s not working. Like you said, it gives the child room for negotiation, arguing etc.
How do I go about finding a behavioral therapist to guide me?
You’re responses are so appreciated!!
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amother




Pewter
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 9:48 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
This really talks to me, as I’ve been taking the ‘gentler’ approach and it’s not working. Like you said, it gives the child room for negotiation, arguing etc.
How do I go about finding a behavioral therapist to guide me?
You’re responses are so appreciated!!


I described my son's behavior at home to his principal, who told me to go to a foundation that has therapists (for kids to talk to) and behavioral therapists that come to your home to help you learn more effective parenting strategies. I had to send in all previous evaluations and bring my son for an interview, then it took a little time to match us up with a therapist. She came to our home every week for over a year to observe and talk with him, she played games with him and gave him a pot of limits and self awareness during the games. She also met with me and helped me figure out what wasn't working, and convinced me to try the different approach I described. I don't know where you live, but I would describe your parenting struggles to your son's principal or his pediatrician, and ask for a recommendation for a behavioral therapist. Hatzlacha!!
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amother




Pewter
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 9:52 pm
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
Maybe. I had a situation earlier tonight in my house. My 8 year old was washing a pot and she put it on the rack to dry. I noticed some soap bubbles and I asked her to rinse it out. She told me she didn't see any bubbles and will dry it with the dish towl which will take off the bubbles if there are any.
I can't explain to you how angry I felt.
How can my daughter have the chutzpah to not just rinse the pot right away or have the chutzpah to tell me it will be wiped off even if it's there? But then I realized, no it's good, she isn't telling me I'm wrong which would be chutzpahdig. She was sharing her truth, in a respectful way, that she doesn't see bubbles. So I just told her I understand what she is saying and it's possible she did not notice the bubbles I saw, but I would still like for her to rinse out the pot again and she'll get schar for doing it and I appreciate it greatly.
I immediately thought of this thread though because I was so triggered from the experience.


Thank you for sharing your parenting victory. If your children are generally able to listen to reason, they definitely deserve the benefit of the doubt - most children do not mean to be disrespectful! Their behavior is always a communication. Sometimes it is a communication for strict limits, but often it is a communication of a need for more independence and self actualization. Your response was so beautiful, good job Mommy!
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Mar 17 2021, 10:20 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
Regarding research, it looks like you did your own research on those studies and came to your own conclusion. I did that with the studies I reference as well! I invite you to do the same with studies on punishing! I’d love to hear what you think of them.

Re #3, we both agree that self control is a crucial skill for a child to learn. My question is - how do we teach a child the crucial skill of self control? If you say through punishment, can you explain me what punishment does to a child and how it teaches him that skill?
Because I believe that punishment is basically a parent not ready to do the job of actually teaching the child and instead, telling the child - figure it out on your own or you get in trouble.
I believe that there are many ways to teach self control, but punishment is just getting yourself out of teaching and expecting your child to teach himself.

Now there will be a certain percent of children who if they are scared enough, will figure out how to teach themselves to be respectful. But the parent did not teach that child, he taught himself, and there will be some kids who just can’t figure it out on their own, no matter what kind of punishment you give.

So punishment really services the parent against the better interest of the child. Which brings me to #2 - punishment works to stop the behavior. Exactly! Stopping the behavior is on the better interest of the parent. Teaching the child instead, is in the better interest of the child.

And don’t tell me you teach the child separately besides for punishing. If you are coming to a place where you need to punish, that is the place you need to be teaching.


Yes, I teach the child HOW to ask/negotiate respectfully. I do NOT just punish and let the
kid "figure it out for himself". I said this repeatedly on this thread but you like making
strawman arguments.
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post Tue, Apr 13 2021, 11:27 pm
When my 11 yr old daughter is disrespectful, like she recently said "You're such a cheapskate" and some other related things because I didn't get her something, I get very triggered and don't want to talk to her at all (she is undermining our relationship when she talks to me that way after all I do for her, it bothers me immensely about how ungrateful she is and like such a spoiled brat) until she apologizes, but she doesn't and later tries to talk about something pareve as if she didn't just hurt/disrespect me before. If I ask her to apologize, she insincerely says sorry. How do I get her to realize what she is doing is so hurtful and disrespectful so she won't do it again?
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yksraya




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Apr 13 2021, 11:59 pm
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
What if I don't want to give my child an extra 7 minutes ever?
they will grow up feeling deprived and stifled.
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yksraya




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 12:01 am
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
When my 11 yr old daughter is disrespectful, like she recently said "You're such a cheapskate" and some other related things because I didn't get her something, I get very triggered and don't want to talk to her at all (she is undermining our relationship when she talks to me that way after all I do for her, it bothers me immensely about how ungrateful she is and like such a spoiled brat) until she apologizes, but she doesn't and later tries to talk about something pareve as if she didn't just hurt/disrespect me before. If I ask her to apologize, she insincerely says sorry. How do I get her to realize what she is doing is so hurtful and disrespectful so she won't do it again?
It's very typical of pre-teens to push your buttons to see what happens. The best reaction, is no reaction at all. Pretend you didn't hear it. Responding will result in a power struggle.
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 10:38 am
yksraya wrote:
It's very typical of pre-teens to push your buttons to see what happens. The best reaction, is no reaction at all. Pretend you didn't hear it. Responding will result in a power struggle.


This is an ongoing issue though. She does it again and again and never seems to feel bad about it or apologize. I don't know how to have a relationship with her. I understand she might be going through things etc, but I don't see why it has to come out as disrespect for me and how to get her to realize that it is not ok to talk like that and I can not forgive it without genuine regret.
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amother




Babyblue
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 11:13 am
Been there, done that.
We've tried a few different approaches. Some worked and some didn't and some works for one kid and not another. Here are a couple things we tried.
1) I've told kids they can't say "no" and need to rephrase.
Example: (ME)Time to get ready for bed
(KID) NO!
(ME) Try again--we don't say no to a parent
(KID) I don't really want to go now, can I have 5 more minutes?

2) We bought a prize (nothing big) and told the kid they can't say no to us a full week. Something like 2 mistakes per day was acceptable if they corrected themselves when prompted. If successful, they got the prize.
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amother




Black
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 3:55 pm
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
When my 11 yr old daughter is disrespectful, like she recently said "You're such a cheapskate" and some other related things because I didn't get her something, I get very triggered and don't want to talk to her at all (she is undermining our relationship when she talks to me that way after all I do for her, it bothers me immensely about how ungrateful she is and like such a spoiled brat) until she apologizes, but she doesn't and later tries to talk about something pareve as if she didn't just hurt/disrespect me before. If I ask her to apologize, she insincerely says sorry. How do I get her to realize what she is doing is so hurtful and disrespectful so she won't do it again?


The question is, why is she behaving this way? Do you have any insight regarding that?

There are basically 3 reasons why children (or people) don’t behave. 1 because we don’t know that what we are doing is wrong. 2. Because we can’t control ourselves to do what’s right or 3. Because we just don’t have the desire that gives us energy to do the right thing.

A good example for this would be when dieting. In order not to eat fatty foods, you need to 1. know which foods are bad for your diet 2. have the actual ability/ self-control skills to resist the temptation and 3. have the desire to use that self control.

With children it’s the same idea. In order for a child to behave, they need to know what the right thing to do is, they need to have self control skills, and they need a desire to use those skills.

Would you say your daughter is disrespectful because:
1. She genuinely does not know that what she is doing is disrespectful?
Or because 2. She does not have the self control skills to hold herself back from being disrespectful when she is upset?
Or because 3. She does have good self control skills just has no desire to use them?

I think it’s rarely #1, so I don’t think you have to “ get her to realize what she is doing is so hurtful and disrespectful.“ She almost certainly knows that it’s disrespectful and inappropriate. The question is, does she lack the ability to control herself from speaking disrespectfully, or the desire to do so?
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 7:07 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
The question is, why is she behaving this way? Do you have any insight regarding that?

There are basically 3 reasons why children (or people) don’t behave. 1 because we don’t know that what we are doing is wrong. 2. Because we can’t control ourselves to do what’s right or 3. Because we just don’t have the desire that gives us energy to do the right thing.

A good example for this would be when dieting. In order not to eat fatty foods, you need to 1. know which foods are bad for your diet 2. have the actual ability/ self-control skills to resist the temptation and 3. have the desire to use that self control.

With children it’s the same idea. In order for a child to behave, they need to know what the right thing to do is, they need to have self control skills, and they need a desire to use those skills.

Would you say your daughter is disrespectful because:
1. She genuinely does not know that what she is doing is disrespectful?
Or because 2. She does not have the self control skills to hold herself back from being disrespectful when she is upset?
Or because 3. She does have good self control skills just has no desire to use them?

I think it’s rarely #1, so I don’t think you have to “ get her to realize what she is doing is so hurtful and disrespectful.“ She almost certainly knows that it’s disrespectful and inappropriate. The question is, does she lack the ability to control herself from speaking disrespectfully, or the desire to do so?


Thank you so much for your detailed reply. Maybe it's a little of both 2 and 3. What is the best response in both those cases?
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amother




Red
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 9:17 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
The question is, why is she behaving this way? Do you have any insight regarding that?

There are basically 3 reasons why children (or people) don’t behave. 1 because we don’t know that what we are doing is wrong. 2. Because we can’t control ourselves to do what’s right or 3. Because we just don’t have the desire that gives us energy to do the right thing.

A good example for this would be when dieting. In order not to eat fatty foods, you need to 1. know which foods are bad for your diet 2. have the actual ability/ self-control skills to resist the temptation and 3. have the desire to use that self control.

With children it’s the same idea. In order for a child to behave, they need to know what the right thing to do is, they need to have self control skills, and they need a desire to use those skills.

Would you say your daughter is disrespectful because:
1. She genuinely does not know that what she is doing is disrespectful?
Or because 2. She does not have the self control skills to hold herself back from being disrespectful when she is upset?
Or because 3. She does have good self control skills just has no desire to use them?

I think it’s rarely #1, so I don’t think you have to “ get her to realize what she is doing is so hurtful and disrespectful.“ She almost certainly knows that it’s disrespectful and inappropriate. The question is, does she lack the ability to control herself from speaking disrespectfully, or the desire to do so?


Is there any 11 year old who is always able to control themselves?
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amother




Olive
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 9:28 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Is there any 11 year old who is always able to control themselves?


11? Yes. At least as much as a mature adult.
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