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How to Respond to Disrespect in Young Children
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 9:25 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
What would you do if the child doesn’t care about any of the above?


Everybody has a price - maybe go for a bigger toy or a special trip.
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amother




Bisque
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 9:34 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
I’m so glad this method worked in your family. It worked in my ex husband’s family too, there was never chutzpah but he did end up becoming an addict. In my family I don’t remember ever being punished. We had the happiest most loving parents. It was always an incredibly positive atmosphere. My brother was extremely chutzpadik as a young child but he grew out of it. He is the most amazing kindest person today and a wonderful husband. We all have great respect for our parents and we’re all healthy adults bli ayin hara. Your way really isn’t the only way it sounds very harsh.


What part is considered harsh? Teaching children from a young age; stopping the interaction when chutzpah is present; sending a child to his room or me walking out of the room?

I don't see what's harsh about children knowing there's a line that they cannot cross.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 9:49 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
All you Imas who are excusing Chutzpah in child would NOT EXCUSE it if your HUSBAND
verbally abused you because "he had a hard day at the office". Then you would scream "ABUSE!"

If you let children get away with Chutzpah YOU ARE RAISING ABUSERS!

You are not being kind to your child but are setting up your child for a destroyed marriage and
maybe divorce.

If you Love your child you will teach them SELF CONTROL and to be RESPECTFUL to all.
No Ona'as Devorim/Disrespect allowed!


BestBubby, you have mentioned before that your children are grown and that you have a good relationship with them. I hope you don't mind my bringing it up here, but I am also b'h a Bubby and my gut feeling tells me that if that is the case, you did NOT raise your children the way the way you are advocating others raise their children here on this forum.

Pihah paschah b'chachmah - children who are modeled respect and gentleness act that way towards others as well. Children who are treated with kindness, act kindly towards others. Children who are treated with respect treat others with respect, children who's feelings are acknowledged and feel that they are heard become people who can empathize with others and have a healthy sense of self.

While we do have to train our children to behave properly, and there are times - very rarely - where punishment may be warranted, there is nothing wrong with saying, very gently - no we don't talk to Mommy like that.

If a child is acting with chutzpah even after you tell him repeatedly that it is wrong, is trying to tell you something.

As a good parent who wanted to have good, healthy children who would become good/healthy adults, I am sure you did not act with your children the way you are describing it here on this forum.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 9:56 pm
You are correct, Mommyg8. I had naturally well behaved children and did not have to punish.

And for many children, modeling respect and gentleness works.

But, not for ALL children.

Some children are manipulative and will take advantage and act like abusive tyrants, if you let them.
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amother




Bisque
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 9:58 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
BestBubby, you have mentioned before that your children are grown and that you have a good relationship with them. I hope you don't mind my bringing it up here, but I am also b'h a Bubby and my gut feeling tells me that if that is the case, you did NOT raise your children the way the way you are advocating others raise their children here on this forum.

Pihah paschah b'chachmah - [b] children who are modeled respect and gentleness act that way towards others as well. Children who are treated with kindness, act kindly towards others. Children who are treated with respect treat others with respect, children who's feelings are acknowledged and feel that they are heard become people who can empathize with others and have a healthy sense of self. [b]

While we do have to train our children to behave properly, and there are times - very rarely - where punishment may be warranted, there is nothing wrong with saying, very gently - no we don't talk to Mommy like that.

If a child is acting with chutzpah even after you tell him repeatedly that it is wrong, is trying to tell you something.

As a good parent who wanted to have good, healthy children who would become good/healthy adults, I am sure you did not act with your children the way you are describing it here on this forum.


I don't see how this contradicts her previous statements. You can enforce expectations and put your foot firmly down against select behaviors, and still do the above all the rest of the time.

If a parent is loving, gentle, understanding and respectful almost all the time, it doesn't harm the children in any way if a certain action changes the parent's demeanor (not to a violent one of course). It can actually bring the point home, where children realize that this particular thing is something not to play around with. It also highlights clear and precise boundaries, which children subconsciously appreciate.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:05 pm
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
What part is considered harsh? Teaching children from a young age; stopping the interaction when chutzpah is present; sending a child to his room or me walking out of the room?

I don't see what's harsh about children knowing there's a line that they cannot cross.


This is the harsh part I was referring to

Sending to room, losing desert, losing yummy snack for school, take away favorite toy,
take away allowance, etc.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:08 pm
I’m so sorry amother bisque, I just realized I mixed you up with best Bubby.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:09 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
This is the harsh part I was referring to

Sending to room, losing desert, losing yummy snack for school, take away favorite toy,
take away allowance, etc.


If a child is given a warning to stop or they will be punished, I think it is fair.

In the real world, if you speed you get a ticket.

If you misbehave at school or work there can be serious consequences.

That's how life works.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:11 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
You are correct, Mommyg8. I had naturally well behaved children and did not have to punish.

And for many children, modeling respect and gentleness works.

But, not for ALL children.

Some children are manipulative and will take advantage and act like abusive tyrants, if you let them.


The problem is that many times what looks like a child who is acting chutzpahdig is really a child who is crying (inside) of pain. Maybe the pain is the relationship with his mother. Or maybe (probably) it's something else. Someone is bullying him in school, for example. Or he is having academic or social issues. Or he has anxiety. Or lots of other reasons.

Children do have to be punished for chutzpah, I do agree with that. And they should be taught to behave, to listen, to follow limits. But kids who have had all that and are still acting out... something is wrong. And it's the parents job to figure out what it is.

Punishment, and punishment alone, is almost never the answer to ANY chinuch problem.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:16 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
The problem is that many times what looks like a child who is acting chutzpahdig is really a child who is crying (inside) of pain. Maybe the pain is the relationship with his mother. Or maybe (probably) it's something else. Someone is bullying him in school, for example. Or he is having academic or social issues. Or he has anxiety. Or lots of other reasons.

Children do have to be punished for chutzpah, I do agree with that. And they should be taught to behave, to listen, to follow limits. But kids who have had all that and are still acting out... something is wrong. And it's the parents job to figure out what it is.

Punishment, and punishment alone, is almost never the answer to ANY chinuch problem.


That is a good point.

I think if a child is misbehaving it is a good idea to have some one on one time together, and
gently probe if everything is OK at school, with friends, etc.

But NOT when the child is misbehaving. Don't teach child that misbehaving is how we get
extra attention. But maybe a couple of days later, take the child out for a walk, an ice cream....
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:18 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
If a child is given a warning to stop or they will be punished, I think it is fair.

In the real world, if you speed you get a ticket.

If you misbehave at school or work there can be serious consequences.

That's how life works.


Yes. When you’re an adult that’s how it works but children aren’t adults.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:21 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
Yes. When you’re an adult that’s how it works but children aren’t adults.


For thousands of years, children were punished when they misbehaved.

And if a child is chutzpadik to a teacher and/or refuses to listen to the teacher, your
child will be punished, maybe even kicked out of the school.

If children are not taught self-control and following rules when they are children, they will
not have self-control as adults and it may RUIN their lives! You are not doing your child
a favor by not teaching your child self-control.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:30 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
For thousands of years, children were punished when they misbehaved.

And if a child is chutzpadik to a teacher and/or refuses to listen to the teacher, your
child will be punished, maybe even kicked out of the school.

If children are not taught self-control and following rules when they are children, they will
not have self-control as adults and it may RUIN their lives! You are not doing your child
a favor by not teaching your child self-control.


There are ways to teach self control that don’t include punishment. As mentioned in an earlier post I was never punished as a child and yes I tested boundaries. I think my parents did a fine job of teaching me how to behave in a loving way.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:35 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
There are ways to teach self control that don’t include punishment. As mentioned in an earlier post I was never punished as a child and yes I tested boundaries. I think my parents did a fine job of teaching me how to behave in a loving way.


Please share the other way to teach self-control without punishment.

All you mentioned regarding your brother is that he eventually grew out of it.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:41 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Please share the other way to teach self-control without punishment.

All you mentioned regarding your brother is that he eventually grew out of it.


He grew out of it because my parents gave him an incredible amount of love and patience and they modeled the correct way to speak I’m sure there was way more to it but I was a young kid myself at the time.

Please check out this website

https://chinuch-lifelines.org/

they will explain it much better than I ever could. As mentioned I get daily tips every day from Rabbi Brezak and they have taught me so much.
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amother




Black
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:49 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
For thousands of years, children were punished when they misbehaved.

And if a child is chutzpadik to a teacher and/or refuses to listen to the teacher, your
child will be punished, maybe even kicked out of the school.

If children are not taught self-control and following rules when they are children, they will
not have self-control as adults and it may RUIN their lives! You are not doing your child
a favor by not teaching your child self-control.


I believe we all want to teach our children self control. The question is, are you so sure that punishing is the way to teach that? Which part of receiving a punishment gives the child the skill to now know how to control himself? Did you do research or study this to know that the way to teach self control to a child is by punishing them?

Because years of psychological research shows a different story.

You (or others with your views on punishment) may not believe in “ psychological hooey “ but you only know what you experienced with a very small group of children (who as you said were pretty well behaved) whereas other people have been studying and researching this topic on hundreds or thousands of children over many years.

Those who have extensively researched punishment do not recommend it as a great way to teach. You’re not “teaching” your child anything, you’re basically telling him - go figure out on your own how to control yourself or you’ll be in trouble. You’re telling him - in your hardest moment, when you’re feeling so dysregulated and you’re acting out and you need me to help you learn how to calm yourself down, I’ll leave you to figure it out on your own or punish you.

Alternatively, we teach self control when we help our child learn to regulate their emotions in their moment of strong feelings, so that they can respond in a calm way or resist the urge to act inappropriately.

You can check dr Becky’s page for more info on this. Her page is so full of amazing info, supported by current psychological research.

And regarding punishing for thousands of years, I’m not sure that was true, since I wasn’t around then, and haven’t researched parenting styles over the centuries, but two points:
1. Kids today are different, whether we like it or not. What worked once doesn’t necessarily work now.
2. If research has shown that there is a better way to teach, why not use it? Would you use bloodletting to cure a fever? B”H we have people who do research and study and find out for us what the best way to parent is and give us that info!
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amother




Black
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 10:58 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
Yes. When you’re an adult that’s how it works but children aren’t adults.


And not necessarily is that the best way for adults either...
see this article regarding speeding tickets, which states that tickets do not prevent drivers from speeding again. Additional info against the idea of punishing as a means of teaching...

https://www.motorists.org/blog.....ding/
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 11:00 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
I believe we all want to teach our children self control. The question is, are you so sure that punishing is the way to teach that? Which part of receiving a punishment gives the child the skill to now know how to control himself? Did you do research or study this to know that the way to teach self control to a child is by punishing them?

Because years of psychological research shows a different story.

You (or others with your views on punishment) may not believe in “ psychological hooey “ but you only know what you experienced with a very small group of children (who as you said were pretty well behaved) whereas other people have been studying and researching this topic on hundreds or thousands of children over many years.

Those who have extensively researched punishment do not recommend it as a great way to teach. You’re not “teaching” your child anything, you’re basically telling him - go figure out on your own how to control yourself or you’ll be in trouble. You’re telling him - in your hardest moment, when you’re feeling so dysregulated and you’re acting out and you need me to help you learn how to calm yourself down, I’ll leave you to figure it out on your own or punish you.

Alternatively, we teach self control when we help our child learn to regulate their emotions in their moment of strong feelings, so that they can respond in a calm way or resist the urge to act inappropriately.

You can check dr Becky’s page for more info on this. Her page is so full of amazing info, supported by current psychological research.

And regarding punishing for thousands of years, I’m not sure that was true, since I wasn’t around then, and haven’t researched parenting styles over the centuries, but two points:
1. Kids today are different, whether we like it or not. What worked once doesn’t necessarily work now.
2. If research has shown that there is a better way to teach, why not use it? Would you use bloodletting to cure a fever? B”H we have people who do research and study and find out for us what the best way to parent is and give us that info!


I am a SEIT who is trained in ABA - applied BEHAVIORAL analyst. Ii have experience with MANY
children.

Of course punishment works - the GOVERNMENT would not use punishment (fines/jail) if it didn't.

I HAVE said to teach children HOW to communicate respectfully. Maybe you did not read that post.

I HAVE also said to teach children when they are upset to take a drink and spend some time alone
until they feel calm. Then talk to Mother about what is upsetting them. Maybe you did not read
that post either.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 11:01 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
And not necessarily is that the best way for adults either...
see this article regarding speeding tickets

https://www.motorists.org/blog.....ding/


Good point!
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Mon, Mar 15 2021, 11:02 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
I believe we all want to teach our children self control. The question is, are you so sure that punishing is the way to teach that? Which part of receiving a punishment gives the child the skill to now know how to control himself? Did you do research or study this to know that the way to teach self control to a child is by punishing them?

Because years of psychological research shows a different story.

You (or others with your views on punishment) may not believe in “ psychological hooey “ but you only know what you experienced with a very small group of children (who as you said were pretty well behaved) whereas other people have been studying and researching this topic on hundreds or thousands of children over many years.

Those who have extensively researched punishment do not recommend it as a great way to teach. You’re not “teaching” your child anything, you’re basically telling him - go figure out on your own how to control yourself or you’ll be in trouble. You’re telling him - in your hardest moment, when you’re feeling so dysregulated and you’re acting out and you need me to help you learn how to calm yourself down, I’ll leave you to figure it out on your own or punish you.

Alternatively, we teach self control when we help our child learn to regulate their emotions in their moment of strong feelings, so that they can respond in a calm way or resist the urge to act inappropriately.

You can check dr Becky’s page for more info on this. Her page is so full of amazing info, supported by current psychological research.

And regarding punishing for thousands of years, I’m not sure that was true, since I wasn’t around then, and haven’t researched parenting styles over the centuries, but two points:
1. Kids today are different, whether we like it or not. What worked once doesn’t necessarily work now.
2. If research has shown that there is a better way to teach, why not use it? Would you use bloodletting to cure a fever? B”H we have people who do research and study and find out for us what the best way to parent is and give us that info!


Very well said!
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