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Crookshanks




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 25 2021, 1:07 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Exactly.
I, for one, had not read Gold's comment in the original thread, but as OOT explained, her comment was transferred to the second thread. It's important to keep in mind in general when these things happen, people tend to line up on "two sides." For or against.

So while I agree that Gold's comment in that thread was reprehensible I dont think it's reprehensible to ackowledge that there is truth in the concept, especially when the source is the gemara and shulchan aruch.

This.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Thu, Mar 25 2021, 1:11 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
First, What does Ashkanazi have to do with anything?
Second, no one is sure of anything. Just the assumption is that someone who was frum kept nidda and someone who wasnt frum did not. The assumption is that someone whose parents were not frum when he or she was conceived is a ben nidda.
Third, being "pagum" is not like being a mamzer. Its not a stain that lasts for generations.
Fourth, even the idea of pagum has many qualifiers that are too numerous to mention, but suffice it to say that its probably not a problem.


Doesn’t that refute your OP?
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Mar 25 2021, 1:36 am
OOTforlife wrote:
I
The beginning of the spinoff was itself emotional. The thread title literally had a sad face in it. The OP twice expressed that the thought of BTs being considered pagum made her sad.

The first bunch of posts made no attempt to answer the technical question of what makes a BT pagum, but instead debated the pros and cons of marrying a BT, including issues such as instability. This is also an emotionally laden topic for many, and not a technical halachic discussion of pgam.

Amother salmon made the first attempt that I see to actually address the issue of being a ben/bat nidda, and her treatment was certainly not limited to a dry technical intellectual response:

am not going to parse the remainder of the thread, but it is obvious to me that this is not how one sets the stage for a purely intellectual discussion of sources.

Edit: I see Burlywood amother mentioned it a few posts before Salmon, but her mention was buried among a list of potential disadvantages of marrying BTs that had nothing to do with the halachic technicality.


At the risk of of being repetitive, I will just respond to your comments to me.

True, the OP had a sad face in her comment and expressed that the thought made her sad. But she also asked a question -why peope would consider a BT deficient. She was asking why anyone would hesitate to marry a BT when it is clear that they are even more special that ffbs. Forgive me but, yes while I saw that she was sad at the thought, I still think she was seeking answers, not comfort.

In any case, if she only wanted people to say "of course we would have no problems with our kids marrying BTs" then she would not be getting honest answers. The fact is that some people have hesitatuons about having their kid marry a BT and they explained why. You don't have to agree with those reasons, but that is how these things work. You might hesitate to marry into my family for any reason that makes sense to you. I may not like it, but that is your prerogative.

But I think you are basically saying that because OP said she was sad at the thought, therefore she was not seeking honest answers. We would have to ask Shabbatiscoming if that is true. I for one(as well as everyone else who responded) took her question at face value and explained what those reasons might be.

Second, I was Burlywood in the other thread, so I was the first to mention that some families prefer not to marry into a BT family where the lineage may not have been pure. True, I didn't get into specifics at that point. Honestly, I didn't know that much about it, and at at the time I thought it was a chassidish hangup. That's why I went and listened to the shiur on it and learned a lot about it.

I learned that the idea of a ben-nidda being considered pagum comes from the gemara. I learned further that pagum manifests itself in brazen character. But that if someone who is assumed to be a ben nidda has a refined character, they are assumed to be from those that are NOT pagum, since the gemara doesn't mean that EVERY ben nidda is pagum.
I learned that if you are presented two shidduchim, and one of them is a ben or bas nidda, but is a better person than the one that is not a ben nidda, you should go for the ben nidda, and assume that they are not pagum.

I learned that if a person is pagum, it can be corrected when they do teshuva. I learned that the Arizal said that Avraham Avinu was a ben Nidda and because he rose to great heights despite his status, it shows that someone who is a ben nidda has the power to become even greater than somwone who does not have those challenges. Finally, I learned Rav Moshe held that if a person has a refined character they are assumed not to be a ben nidda at all!! (Because the mother probably swam in the ocean, and that counts as tevila). This is just a sampling of what he said.

I don't blame anyone who didn't know this. I didn't know any of this myself. My gripe is with people who dismiss things as ridiculous just because they never heard of it, and don't have the intellectual honesty to want to know the truth.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Mar 25 2021, 1:41 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Doesn’t that refute your OP?


Not at all!! Again, listen to the shiur for a full treatment, but I posted a short synopsis above.
In short- it is a real thing that a ben nidda is pagum. That's what it says in Shulchan Aruch and Rambam. But what does pagum mean and how does it apply is what matters. And in conclusion, you probably have nothing to worry about.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 25 2021, 8:40 am
If someone brings actual sources, I can respect that. Someone yelling "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!" will automatically make me think less of them.

Back to the main topic at hand, I guess we should all stop reading Megillas Rut, and stop hoping for Moshiach to come. https://www.breslev.co.il/arti.....glish

We wouldn't want to send a bad message to all of our precious FFB children now, would we?
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amother
Natural


 

Post Thu, Mar 25 2021, 8:44 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Not at all!! Again, listen to the shiur for a full treatment, but I posted a short synopsis above.
In short- it is a real thing that a ben nidda is pagum. That's what it says in Shulchan Aruch and Rambam. But what does pagum mean and how does it apply is what matters. And in conclusion, you probably have nothing to worry about.


Technically yes. But in the end of the day, the practical application of being worried to marry someone who might be a ben nidda is not a concern nowadays according to many poskim.
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 25 2021, 2:32 pm
This just happened to me on a thread about bleeding during relations.

Someone said if you bleed three times from relations you might have to get divorced.

I very strongly said that although there is a source in the gemorah for this, it is basically non existent today and it is spreading misinformation to say such a thing.

I feel that this needed to be said because 1: No one here is a gynecologist 2: no one here is a rov 3: has anyone here heard an actual case of this happening? 4: why scare the OP needlessly?
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