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How do you pronounce יששכר? I'm confused how to
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amother
Violet


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 1:36 am
amother [ Mauve ] wrote:
Just as a btw, there is a מחלוקת if Dov and Berish are 2 different names. I know of a family member whos name is Dov. His fil insisted on giving his father's name Berish. This son in-law was livid that when it came to actual name giving his fil did what he wanted to. So now father and son, one is Dov and one is Berish. While his fil says it's 2 different names the son in law says his son has the same name as him.


Woah! While I know this is not the point of your post, I am taken aback that a father inlaw would have a right to dictate to his son in law what name to give his own child. Not only does the babys father abdicate his rights to naming his own child, but he even has to do so in a case where he holds differeny than the fatherinlaw. Can't Believe It Mad

I know this is one of those cultural things, but this always boggles my mind.

Sorry for derailing. Carry on.
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 1:41 am
cutestbaby wrote:
No this is wrong. There's no such name as ישכר. They are different pronunciations of the name יששכר


I haven't finished reading the thread but just had to comment on this. I have a close family member who's name is ישכר. It was looked into and rechecked into a few times. The name is ישכר not יששכר
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amother
Coral


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 1:46 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
Berries? Do you mean the dudaim ? Dudaim are usually defined as mandrakes or jasmine, not berries.
In any case, what language is "Berish" in that it connects to dudaim? I didn't quite get the connection.
(However it makes perfect sense that it would go with Yisachar since the name Yisachar means that there is reward.(yesh sachar) . The reward she was talking about was paying for her chance to sleep with Yaakov that night by giving away the dudaim.
Incidently, some opinions say that is why we drop the second sin from the name because it was to keep this transaction private.)


not really sure how dudaim got translated in Yiddish to berries along th way.... Maybe the small flowers resembled berries? Regarding the pronunciation in old Germanic Yiddish a plural noun was very often pronounced with an sh or shin sound at the end rather than s or samech. You can still see this in old Yiddish writing like the translations of the really old korban mincha siddurim.
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tweety1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 1:46 am
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
I haven't finished reading the thread but just had to comment on this. I have a close family member who's name is ישכר. It was looked into and rechecked into a few times. The name is ישכר not יששכר

Read the thread. Have fun. If you're really interested I can send you a copy/paste of a pm I received too on this matter. Lol. Some ppl are just.... "Just because I never heard of it, or provide a source on it or else it doesn't exist". Yeah. Tnx for posting this. I'm glad I'm not the only one saying it.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 2:07 am
These name changes are much more common among girls than boys.

Here's the process (at least among Ashkenazim). A girl is born and her parents name her שרה. But they nickname her Serel, and everyone uses that. Still her כתובה says שרה. After 120, her grandchildren want to name after her, and they all remember Bubby as Serel, even though her tombstone says שרה.

So the new baby is named Serel, spelled phonetically as סרל or סערעל. In some cases the spelling is meant to distinguish from the original name, in some cases it's ignorance, and in some cases it's convenience. Generations pass, and a new baby is born. Now the name is Serel without question, because that really was
Bubby's name.

Over time, שרה and סרל/סערעל are established as being two separate names, even though one is a derivation/corruption/nickname of the other.

Families were generally more careful to keep a boy's original name, but the process does happen with boys' names as well. The ambiguity in the spelling and pronunciation of יששכר makes it a good candidate for change.

As far as I know, Yissoschor is found only among chassidim.

ETA: Possibly the way it worked with this name is that some parents chose to use the uncommon pronunciation of Yissoschor. Then others, who wanted their son to be known as Yissachar, dropped a ש to avoid the ambiguity in the original name. The new spelling then became accepted (in their circles) over time.
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tweety1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 2:19 am
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
These name changes are much more common among girls than boys.

Here's the process (at least among Ashkenazim). A girl is born and her parents name her שרה. But they nickname her Serel, and everyone uses that. Still her כתובה says שרה. After 120, her grandchildren want to name after her, and they all remember Bubby as Serel, even though her tombstone says שרה.

So the new baby is named Serel, spelled phonetically as סרל or סערעל. In some cases the spelling is meant to distinguish from the original name, in some cases it's ignorance, and in some cases it's convenience. Generations pass, and a new baby is born. Now the name is Serel without question, because that really was
Bubby's name.

Over time, שרה and סרל/סערעל are established as being two separate names, even though one is a derivation/corruption/nickname of the other.

Families were generally more careful to keep a boy's original name, but the process does happen with boys' names as well. The ambiguity in the spelling and pronunciation of יששכר makes it a good candidate for change.

As far as I know, Yissoschor is found only among chassidim.

This theory what you're saying can be said on every single minhag. Some minhagim are so strong almost like Torah. Where do all minhagim originate from? Will you question and investigate every single minhag your family hold by, and if you understand it you keep it and if you don't understand it you don't keep it?? I don't. It's a minhag passed down from one generation to the next-we call that מסורה. Finish. No questions asked. The same is with names.
Edited for typo
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amother
Olive


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 2:43 am
tweety1 wrote:
This theory what you're saying can be said on every single minhag. Some minhagim are so strong almost like Torah. Where do all minhagim originate from? Will you question and investigate every single minhag your family hold by, and if you understand it you keep it and if you don't understand it you don't keep it?? I don't. It's a minhag passed down from one generation to the next-we call that מסורה. Finish. No questions asked. The same is with names.
Edited for typo


I'm not dismissing the possibility of using these names, just explaining how we got to where we are. I happen to have a Yiddish name that is almost certainly a corruption of a name from Chumash.

It's worrisome that you think baby naming is minhag, like Torah le-Moshe Mi-Sinai.

Not eating kitniyos on Pesach, that's a minhag. Using a name that is derived from another name is just a social practice. Can you really not distinguish between the two?
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tweety1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 3:29 am
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
I'm not dismissing the possibility of using these names, just explaining how we got to where we are. I happen to have a Yiddish name that is almost certainly a corruption of a name from Chumash.

It's worrisome that you think baby naming is minhag, like Torah le-Moshe Mi-Sinai.

Not eating kitniyos on Pesach, that's a minhag. Using a name that is derived from another name is just a social practice. Can you really not distinguish between the two?

Of course baby naming is not Torah. The theory that you said is just the same as some minhagim. I won't say all. Ok. I didn't understand what you said in your post. Just explaining how we got to where we are". I get it now what you were trying to say. Where we are now, this era, hundreds of years later. I get it. It is what it is. These names, variations of variations of variations is here to stay.
Ya know, we can have the same exact discussion on last names too. I think it would actually be quite interesting to hear abt popular last names where they originated from and how they came to be what they are. I dunno what circles you are. But my kids read the Maalos and they very often have such a mini column on last names. Maybe somebody is interested in starting a s/o.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 3:40 am
tweety1 wrote:
Of course baby naming is not Torah. The theory that you said is just the same as some minhagim. I won't say all. Ok. I didn't understand what you said in your post. Just explaining how we got to where we are". I get it now what you were trying to say. Where we are now, this era, hundreds of years later. I get it. It is what it is. These names, variations of variations of variations is here to stay.
Ya know, we can have the same exact discussion on last names too. I think it would actually be quite interesting to hear abt popular last names where they originated from and how they came to be what they are. I dunno what circles you are. But my kids read the Maalos and they very often have such a mini column on last names. Maybe somebody is interested in starting a s/o.


This was a gracious reply. Thanks.

Last names are indeed interesting. They are fairly recent developments in recent Jewish history, mostly imposed from outside. Some people had nicknames attached to their names, but surnames that passed consistently from one generation to the next only appear in the premodern and modern eras.

In my family, in my grandparents' generation, there were siblings with different last names, taken to avoid the Czarist draft. Though we still use our very Eastern European last names, I think it's totally fine to Hebraicize a name. There's nothing particularly holy about some Germanized name. I understand keeping a name for sentimental reasons, as many have done.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 7:37 am
Reality wrote:
I have never heard it pronounced as Yissaschar. Only Yissachar.

Maybe it's Israeli to pronounce the second sin?

I am not chassidish.


Same, I have a nephew called yissocher.
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amother
Gray


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 7:55 am
It's one name, pronounced two diff ways. No brainer.
Some people choose to say the second sin. Most don't. A komatz sounds like oooh in some circles.

It's like saying kreindy is different than kreina because a nickname stuck over time and became it's own sort of name.
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amother
Violet


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 8:02 am
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
These name changes are much more common among girls than boys.

Here's the process (at least among Ashkenazim). A girl is born and her parents name her שרה. But they nickname her Serel, and everyone uses that. Still her כתובה says שרה. After 120, her grandchildren want to name after her, and they all remember Bubby as Serel, even though her tombstone says שרה.

So the new baby is named Serel, spelled phonetically as סרל or סערעל. In some cases the spelling is meant to distinguish from the original name, in some cases it's ignorance, and in some cases it's convenience. Generations pass, and a new baby is born. Now the name is Serel without question, because that really was
Bubby's name.

Over time, שרה and סרל/סערעל are established as being two separate names, even though one is a derivation/corruption/nickname of the other.

Families were generally more careful to keep a boy's original name, but the process does happen with boys' names as well. The ambiguity in the spelling and pronunciation of יששכר makes it a good candidate for change.

As far as I know, Yissoschor is found only among chassidim.

ETA: Possibly the way it worked with this name is that some parents chose to use the uncommon pronunciation of Yissoschor. Then others, who wanted their son to be known as Yissachar, dropped a ש to avoid the ambiguity in the original name. The new spelling then became accepted (in their circles) over time.


This. Well said.
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tweety1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 10:25 am
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
It's one name, pronounced two diff ways. No brainer.
Some people choose to say the second sin. Most don't. A komatz sounds like oooh in some circles.

It's like saying kreindy is different than kreina because a nickname stuck over time and became it's own sort of name.

Sorry lady. It's not the same name. Maybe hundreds of years ago it was like olive said. But in our generation it's not. Just because you didn't hear of the other way doesn't mean it's the same name. I explained myself abt pronounciation in a previous post.
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tweety1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 10:27 am
This is going around in circles. Some ppl here have a very hard time accepting something "I never heard of".
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 10:29 am
Ber(ish) is not a name in and of itself. A child isn't name Ber at a bris unless someone was very clueless and made an innocent mistake. The child can be Dov or Yisucher or Yisucher Dov or you can add Ber also but no one is just Ber(ish) at a bris.

It's understandable an Aryeh would be upset his child named a grandchild Leib since Leib isn't a name by itself, only a nickname or supporting name for Aryeh or Yehuda. Having a grandchild Yehuda shouldn't bother an Aryeh. And I hope those people asked a shaila.
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 10:38 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
This. Well said.


The girl v boy doesn't have to do with changes. It has to do with the fact that women were not really involved in religious life bichlal and men needed a strong Jewish name for shul whereas girls did not. So no many is named Hersh, he is always Tzvi etc but with girls it's OK to be Charna and Tila. So ironic that today many boys get English names and girls stay with their regular names on the birth certificate lol.
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tweety1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:14 am
nchr wrote:
Ber(ish) is not a name in and of itself. A child isn't name Ber at a bris unless someone was very clueless and made an innocent mistake. The child can be Dov or Yisucher or Yisucher Dov or you can add Ber also but no one is just Ber(ish) at a bris.

It's understandable an Aryeh would be upset his child named a grandchild Leib since Leib isn't a name by itself, only a nickname or supporting name for Aryeh or Yehuda. Having a grandchild Yehuda shouldn't bother an Aryeh. And I hope those people asked a shaila.

Right. But some ppl don't give Yiddish names so they'll give Dov by the bris. But some ppl do give Yisucher Ber as apposed to Yisucher Dov. I know this for a fact. Will not go into detail here it's a long conversation on it's own and involves giving out more information than I'm ready.
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amother
Gray


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:16 am
tweety1 wrote:
Sorry lady. It's not the same name. Maybe hundreds of years ago it was like olive said. But in our generation it's not. Just because you didn't hear of the other way doesn't mean it's the same name. I explained myself abt pronounciation in a previous post.

Beyond silliness. A name that comes from another name is the same name.
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amother
Violet


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:17 am
nchr wrote:
The girl v boy doesn't have to do with changes. It has to do with the fact that women were not really involved in religious life bichlal and men needed a strong Jewish name for shul whereas girls did not. So no many is named Hersh, he is always Tzvi etc but with girls it's OK to be Charna and Tila. So ironic that today many boys get English names and girls stay with their regular names on the birth certificate lol.


I agree with this.
The jewish name was attached to the "secular" name because they needed them for aliyos etc. Tzvi Hersh, Yitzchok Isaac, Shlomo Zalmen etc.
I also heard that people in general were less worried about girls going off and becoming secular, whereas men, who went out into the world needed a Jewish appelation to keep them in the fold.
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amother
Violet


 

Post Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:37 am
amother [ Olive ] wrote:


Here's the process (at least among Ashkenazim). A girl is born and her parents name her שרה. But they nickname her Serel, and everyone uses that. Still her כתובה says שרה. After 120, her grandchildren want to name after her, and they all remember Bubby as Serel, even though her tombstone says שרה.

So the new baby is named Serel, spelled phonetically as סרל or סערעל. In some cases the spelling is meant to distinguish from the original name, in some cases it's ignorance, and in some cases it's convenience. Generations pass, and a new baby is born. Now the name is Serel without question, because that really was
Bubby's name.

Over time, שרה and סרל/סערעל are established as being two separate names, even though one is a derivation/corruption/nickname of the other.

.


True story:
I know someone who named her child an unusual name. I asked her where it's from. She said its a name from Tanach and she always loved it, so she wanted to name her daughter that name.

It turns out its the name of a MAN in Tanach. The parents didn't realize this and named their daughter this beautiful MAN's name, thinking its woman's name. After the baby was named, the grandfather of the baby (who happens to be a Rav ) heard what they did and he was mortified, but there was nothing he could do.

Her parents now know they made this mistake but try to cover it up by saying there is another female in Tanach with the same name. (There isn't).

So this girl grew up with a male name. After 120, her descendants will want to name after her and they will insist that this name can be a female name as well as a male name. After all their Bubby had this name .All based on a mistake/ignorance.

(It was not one of those names like Yona or Simcha, names that are found by both men and women. Nor was it feminized like people sometimes do. It was a legit male name from Tanach.)
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