I learned it this way in school so it must be right

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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amother

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:08 am

**If this thread is a trigger for you, feel free to skip right over it.

We have all gone to school, and learned a lot of important things from our teachers BH. Yet sometimes, mistakes creep in and we come away with a wrong idea or understanding. We end up as adults, perpetuating these mistake. There are some mistakes that are so common and widespread that most people will simply be unwilling to hear that it stems from a blatant mistake and insist that its mesora. Or "another pshat".

I have taught HS limudei kodesh for over 20 years. As careful as I try to be, I am sure I have made mistakes over the years. In fact, I remember, in one of my early years, a father of a student corrected a certain basic mistake I made. It was embarrassing at the time but I was extremely grateful because I am aware that students could go on with this mistake uncorrected indefinitely. It gave me the opportunity to correct it for that class and all future classes.

Another time, a parent called me to discuss something her daughter quoted me on. It turned out in that case that the daughter completely misunderstood what I said. Again, it gave me the opportunity to correct it. Also, I often notice on test papers that girls give answers that they think I said, but misunderstood. If several girls had the same mistake, I make sure to correct this mistake in front of the whole class. Despite this, I am sure many, many girls still come away with the wrong idea.

The bottom line is that the student could be remembering wrong, could have misunderstood, or in some cases, the teacher could have just made a mistake. Teachers are human.

Sometimes we are so sure someone said something but when we check it with that person, it turns out we remembered it wrong. Some family stories are like that. Many years later it turns out the the story you have been repeating for years (the way you heard it from grandpa) was based on a mistake.

There are certain mistakes that are so common that I wait for it every year from my kid's teachers. For example, kids routinely learn in school that shalach manos have to be two separate brachos (they only have to be two different kinds), and that Mordechai was Esther's uncle. (He was her first cousin). Unsurprisingly, I find these mistakes more common in girls' schools than boys' schools.

These things are often not even debatable, it's as easy as looking into a chumash or megilla. And yet, I'm not sure if it's a personality type or intellectual laziness, or something else, to just say "I learned it in school, so it must be right."

No, you don't have to accept what any random poster says. But at the very least, if it's so easy to verify, why live with, and perpetuate, a basic mistake?

Once, a girl asked me to help her with a school report. She had to do something on the Imahos. As we were brainstorming, I suggested that she do something on Rochel and Leah with the story of the dudaim. She said, "Oh, I heard about that midrash."

I said, "its actually in the chumash, not a Midrash."

She said, "no, someone brought this up in class and my teacher insisted that it was not p'shat, just a midrash."

I didn't argue further with her. I simply went to my shelf, got down a chumash Bereishis, opened it to Parashas Vayeitsei and showed her the relavant pesukim.

It's great to have an open mind and hear what others say. If its different than what you learned, you don't have to accept anything. You can look it up yourself, if you care to know the truth.

BrachaVHatzlocha

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:17 am

Yonah wasnt in a whale but in a "big fish." Pinocchio was swallowed by the whale

paperflowers

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:25 am

You sound like an excellent teacher!

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:32 am

Outstanding post, OP!

As you said, I think it's a combination of intellectual laziness and girsa d'yankusa. We all have a tendency to trust things that sound familiar to us over things that don't. I'm reading Daniel Kahneman's "Thinking, Fast and Slow" in which he discusses the mental shortcuts we take. He brings many examples to show how common this is, even among very bright people. (Incidentally, based on your OP, I think you'd enjoy the book.)

singleagain

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:36 am

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

girsa d'yankusa.

Translation please?

amother

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:39 am

singleagain wrote:

Translation please?

What we learned when we were young.

EtA: floralwhite underneith me said it better than me.

The word girsa is also used to refer to a version or text. Like one would say, "this is a different girsa", for a diffeeent wording.

Sometimes there are different vesion of a Rashi, that were found in old manuscripts. So some chumashim will include the alternative text and write "girsa acher", or "nusach acher."

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:40 am

singleagain wrote:

Translation please?

גירסא דינקותא - "Girsa dyankuta means the things one learns with ones mothers milk. This is the literal translation. Girsa comes from the Aramaic, meaning to read or learn, especially by heart. Yankuta is a child who is nursing, from yonek, the Hebrew word which means to suckle."

https://www.thejc.com/judaism/......8064

BH Yom Yom

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:43 am

Well-said, OP! You sound like a phenomenal, very intellectually honest teacher.

amother

Coral

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:43 am

Thank you for your post.

My pet peeve is the typical drawing of Har Sinai with the luchos on top.
The luchos were not given at Matan Torah. Moshe brought them down later.

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:47 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Thank you for your post.

My pet peeve is the typical drawing of Har Sinai with the luchos on top.
The luchos were not given at Matan Torah. After Matan Torah, Moshe went up for 40 days and came down with the luchos which he immediately broke (upon seeing the egel). Then he went back up for another 40 days, returning with the second set of luchos.

I don't think people are confused about that. Those 40 days immediately followed Matan Torah, so they are largely considered part of the same event. Yes, Moshe broke the first set, but the events are still associated.

My pet peeve, as mentioned above, is about Yonah. Yonah was not trying to "run away from Hashem." He was trying to put himself into a situation in which he would not receive nevuah by staying amongst idol worshippers. Also, he was actually inside two different fish, first a male and then a female.

simcha2

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:55 am

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

To be fair, the p'shat supports that Yonah was fleeing from Hashem.

In 1:3. 'וַיָּ֚קָם יוֹנָה֙ לִבְרֹ֣חַ תַּרְשִׁ֔ישָׁה מִלִּפְנֵ֖י ה

And in pasuk י, יוַיִּֽירְא֚וּ הָֽאֲנָשִׁים֙ יִרְאָ֣ה גְדוֹלָ֔ה וַיֹּֽאמְר֥וּ אֵלָ֖יו מַה־זֹּ֣את עָשִׂ֑יתָ כִּי־יָֽדְע֣וּ הָֽאֲנָשִׁ֗ים כִּֽי־מִלִּפְנֵ֚י ה' ה֣וּא בֹרֵ֔חַ כִּ֥י הִגִּ֖יד לָהֶֽם

amother

Ginger

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:01 pm

Op, I’m a limudai kodesh teacher for many years as well.
I think what you wrote is very dangerous on a site like this where everyone loves to blame everything on the system.
Many people here can’t even differentiate between yeshivish and Chassidish.
The schools my daughters have attended from elementary to BJJ are nothing like you’re describing.
They are high caliber with excellent teachers. The principals, who are well educated mechanchos. check every paper given out as well as review every test. There are no mistakes due to lack of education
Kids that misquote my lessons? For sure. No matter what a teacher does, it’s inevitable.

amother

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:07 pm

BH Yom Yom wrote:

Well-said, OP! You sound like a phenomenal, very intellectually honest teacher.

Thank you, and thank you paperflowers.
I love to teach but on the side, I am a closet researcher.

I have a mental list of pet peeves of these common mistakes and it always amazes me how widespread they are. I try to correct these mistakes whenever I get a chance. I also encourage my students to think for themselves and work them out for themselves if possible. (For example if the Ba'al Haturim brings a gematria, don't just rely on his numbers. Work it out yourself. There is a certain Ba'al Haturim in Shemos that I use to illuatrate the idea of "kollel", and I teach this by allowing them to see that the gematria is off by one.)

Btw, this thread was inspired because someone said those exact words to me: "I always learned this in school so that source is obviously correct." Can't Believe It

Its just sad, honestly.

At the same time, I am always learning and discovering things that I also learned wrong! Learning is a wonderful thing.

There are sefarim dedicated to correcting old mistakes in ancient sefarim that have been around thousands of years. These mistakes were common when scribes used to write over everything by hand. And then come generations of commentators who twist themselves into pretzels trying to resolve these things, explaining how the Rambam could have said this when it's in direct contradiction to something else he said.

Then along comes the Gra and says that the version we have is a scribe's mistake...oops.

amother

Ginger

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:09 pm

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

I hope your not a teacher. This information is false. Moshe went up 3 times returning on Yom Kippur.

amother

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:09 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Will check out this book. Thank you!

amother

Ginger

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:10 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

I hope your not a teacher. This information is false. Moshe went up 3 times returning on Yom Kippur.

Talking about things straight out in the text. This information with all the dates is clearly in the kitzur, not in some secret medrash someplace

amother

Ginger

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:15 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Where do your kids go to school? I’ve taught to a tonupper elementary as well as high school. Yona is a very short Sefer so very easy to teach and never had confusion your talking about.
The two fish Rashi, is one of the most typical rashis my daughters have learned by fourth grade for sure.

amother

Ginger

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:19 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thank you, and thank you paperflowers.
I love to teach but on the side, I am a closet researcher.

I have a mental list of pet peeves of these common mistakes and it always amazes me how widespread they are. I try to correct these mistakes whenever I get a chance. I also encourage my students to think for themselves and work them out for themselves if possible. (For example if the baal Haturim brings a gematria, don't just rely on his numbers. Work it out yourself. There is a certain Baal Haturim in Shemos that I use to illuatrate the idea of "kollel", and I teach this by allowing them to see that the gematria is off by one.)

Btw, this thread was inspired because someone said those exact words to me: "I always learned this in school so that source is obviously correct." Can't Believe It

Its just sad, honestly.

At the same time, I am always learning and discovering things that I also learned wrong! Learning is a wonderdul thing.

There are sefarim dedicated to correcting old mistakes in ancient sefarim that have been around thousands of years. These mistakes were common when scribes used to write over everything by hand. And then come generations of commentators who twist themselves into pretzels trying to resolve these things, explaining how the Rambam could have said this when its in direct contradiction to something else he said.

Then along comes the Gra and says that the version we have is a scribe's mistake...oops.

This is even scarier. I hope you don’t teach your students that te Baal haturim is wrong. You know in hilchos gematria you can be off by one number. The fact that you didn’t know this and are a teacher is more troublesome to me then anything.
I very rarely teach gematrios because they don’t do any for me, but I hope I misunderstood you if you are a kodesh teacher.

amother

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:28 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

I appreciate what youre saying. I hope no one uses this to bash the system.

To be honest, a lot of what is said on this site is dangerous when taken the wrong way.

I'm so happy that your children's schools are staffed by high caliber, excellent and knowledgable teachers. Not all of us are so fortunate. Plus, not all of us went to schools that had the highest caliber teachers.
I went to excellent schools and don't remember learning anything wrong. Nevertheless, some of these common mistakes eclipse the classroom. You can find these mistakes in kids' tapes and in Jewish magazines as well.

My daughter's kindergarten teacher was the wife of a Rosh Yshiva and teacher for over 35 years when she taught my daughter's class that shalach manos had to have two brachos. I reached out to her privately and she corrected it for the students.

My daughter is today a teacher in a choshuv school (possibly one of the schools your daughter goes to!) I know she prepares extensively and is very knowledgeable. But at times, we discuss things that came up in class and it could happen that she missed something- a small detail. It happens to the best of us.

I am not saying to blame the system, chas veshalom. I am saying to be open to learning. If someone points out that something you learned is not accurate, its a midda of emes to open up the chumash, sefer etc to just look, instead of saying, no, you are definitely wrong. As I said, some mistakes are so easily verified.

Ultimately, once a person leaves school, hopefully they have the maturity to view their school experience as a whole, realizing that what they learned is probably 99% correct but that possibly they absorbed some mistakes along the way.

itsmeima

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:29 pm

I feel like I spend my adult life unlearning what I learned in school 🤦‍♀️

And my kids are constantly coming home with crazy ideas. I find myself telling them a lot, “I think you misunderstood your teacher!”

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