How to treat an orphan/story in Ami Living

amother

Crimson

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 10:55 am

As someone who lost a parent in hs and had younger siblings I think this is a bit extreme. it didn’t sound like the teacher directly called her out to add to the conversation ( if she had super wrong) she just felt like all eyes were on her and I hear that I have felt it. but they offered her to leave if she ever felt uncomfortable. cutting out such a topic is huge Grief is a big topic and important that everyone who has a loss sits shiva not everyone knows how to handle such feelings. I remember a few summers later a girl in my room lost her 102 year old grandmother and she was a mess ( no she didn’t know my situation) at first in my head I was like get over yourself she lived a full life, but then I thought she has a right to have her feelings it’s hard to lose anyone no matter when. Everyone has something I was the only girl in my school that lost a parent should they act like it doesn’t exist anymore to tiptoe around my feelings that’s crazy. The mom can say give me a heads up if topics come up but to make so many calls to have the topic removed is extreme. I also remember we were learning something in 12th grade I think it was in psychology about hospice now I had heard that word but didn’t know what it was I knew my parent had been moved to hospice in the final weeks but until that day I didn’t understand what that meant. And that was that no one called the school to change anything such is life.

amother

Black

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:07 am

I also get the picture that the mom isn't allowing the daughter to heal properly and go on with her life properly. The mother is supposed to help the daughter and teach her tools how to handle these situations in a healthy way without having such a strong reaction every time greif and loss is mentioned. Both mom and daughter need therapy.

amother

Blush

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:13 am

tweek wrote:

We change our curriculum all the time according to the specific circumstances of students. We have left out certain stories in literature, topics in Biology, nixed a certain storyline for school production, during the time that students with specific life circumstances were in the school or in a certain grade.

I can't think of anything that is so important to teach or talk about that it is worth hurting a student or causing her pain. There are so many other ways for people to read about or learn about these things.

We all know that if a teenager has a small pimple, she walks around SURE that EVERYONE notices it as soon as they see her. She is self conscious and uncomfortable all day. Imagine how she feels having to be out of class during such a discussion. She is sure that is all everyone is thinking and talking about for the next few days.

It scares me that so many people are so nonchalant about this. These girls are deeply affected by something that happened to them for the rest of their lives. This is one TINY thing we can do to make things easier.

This girl suffered a loss when she was little. The rest of the class would really benefit from the lesson. It’s not as though the school can push off the lesson until next year. It’s already been 12 years.
It’s on the mother to find a way to help her daughter cope. Arrange with the school to present the lesson at a time when the mother could take her out. Brainstorm an excuse together so the girl isn’t singled out. But to say that the entire class, for their entire high school experience, shouldn’t be taught this lesson? That doesn’t sit right with me.

There are other ways to accommodate this child that don’t involve changing the curriculum for the entire class. That seems very entitled to me.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:15 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

Agree with this!

amother

Blush

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:19 am

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

I’m with you. This is a topic that should be taught. The entire class shouldn’t be deprived of an important topic. They need to find a way to have the class without this child feeling singled out. The mother could have worked with the school to figure it out. Instead she decided that she gets to dictate the school’s curriculum. I don’t think that’s right.

amother

Puce

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:21 am

watergirl wrote:

Seeing as this is a real issur, the best solution would have been for the principal and the mother to go together to the posek of the school and ask what the right thing for the daughter to do would be.

There has NEVER been a time that we asked, that we were told that the class or the school's needs were more important that the yesoma or almanah. The Torah has very clear guidelines about this.

Interestingly, this was also true when we consulted the top professionals in this field. Regardless of how much time had passed and what others around thought or felt, the girl got to decide what she was comfortable with. In some cases, it was to skip the class, in others it may even have been to lead the discussion, but yes in cases like this, she calls the shots and I'm personally glad to err on the side of caution with this one (and glad that both the Torah authorities and professionals we consulted agreed).

amother

Oak

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:23 am

Yesoma here. I didn't read that story, but I just wanted to chime in here.
My halacha teacher in high school taught how you can have kibud av va'aim to a parent who was niftar already. I looked at it as part of the curriculum and didn't care. (It was actually probably the only thing I really listened to!) But my sister was a bit uncomfortable with staying in the class for it. She didn't make a big deal though, didn't even tell my mother.

The whole school watched a moving video (probably during sefira), meant to wake us up. In the end of it, it had a young boy running to his father's kever, crying "Totty!" My principal called me out of class before the video and very nicely told me about that part of it, and said if I don't feel comfortable I can stay out of the auditorium, but she'd love if I do stay. There respect I have for that principal, for warning me about it, is immense

tweek

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:24 am

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

For all those saying this, I just want to point out that all this happened after the school already made the mistake. There was no way to fix it without the girl being aware. Of course if it can be worked out beforehand and the girl never even knows she missed out, that is ideal. But if she is uncomfortable with having to leave for a specific discussion, that should be taken into account.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:47 am

tweek wrote:

It was no mistake, the girl was in 12 grade. It was an English class discussing a novel. I’m sure the teacher knew that she didn’t have a father, teachers aren’t dumb.
The teacher also knew it was 12 years ago! I’m sure she made the decision that a high level discussion based on a novel was ok to hear. It sounds like it was an intelligent teacher (grade 12 literature). It’s time the girl get help (and the mom)
Like I said before, what is happening to this young adult next year in college? Is every non Jewish teacher in every class going to change their curriculum based on her? Will the mom call the dean in a huff?
If they both don’t get help now, it’s just going to get worse.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:52 am

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

This is patently false.I’ve worked in schools. My many kids attend schools.
There are yesomim and yesomos in every school. All run with daas Torah
Not one has ever cancelled Inviting mothers to the Chanukah events, mother daughter luncheons, school plays... even though I’m sure it’s painful for those without mothers (and we’re not talking about a 17 year old here)
Every shul with well respected rabbanim including mine has avos ubanim (even if you change the name),
No one has ever cancelled these events and unfortunately they are very painful for a yasom or yesoma

tweek

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:56 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Not sure why this was written this way. Please don't misquote me. I never said anything about canceling school events. I've never encountered such a scenario where a girl or her mother asked for them to be canceled.

amother

Sienna

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 11:57 am

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

My siblings and I would be very bothered if these things would be cancelled because of us.
My brothers always had uncles or brothers in law to stand in for their dad, and make them not feel left out.

My brother recently had to complete a yeshivah application, and by fathers occupation, he wrote Meilitz Yoisher. Which I thought was adorable.

tweek

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:01 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

The mistake was not addressing it beforehand so that the situation could be avoided. I understand that you are of the position that the school doesn't have to care. But I was responding to the poster who did care and wanted to fix it post facto.

As for the point about college, our discussion here is about a Jewish school which is bound by the sensitivities of the Torah. If she decides to further her education, she would understand that that isn't the case.

tweek

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:03 pm

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

Wow! That is awesome and represents a real healthy way of dealing with all this.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:05 pm

tweek wrote:

As a Jewish school they are bound to help them by forcing them both into therapy.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:09 pm

tweek wrote:

I’m not misquoting you.
You made a blanket statement that every rav paskens that you must take the child’s sensitivity. I’m stating that’s ridiculous. There are challenging situations for yesomim in every school and none get cancelled.
I work in a school and we actually did ask our rabbanim a shayla similar and the answer was keep doing our events.

tweek

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:17 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

I said that in every case where we asked, this is what we were told. I also explained that the scenario you described never came up. All the examples I gave were related to curriculum (which is what this discussion is actuallyabout) .

It is not my policy to get nitty gritty, especially with an anonymous poster. But when someone accuses me of making a false statement about my own experience (not sure how to that works), I feel a need to clarify.

amother

Jade

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:47 pm

My father died when I was a young teenager and I think the mother is wrong. 17 is too old to still be coddled like that, especially being that he had died 12 years earlier. If he had died in the past couple years that might change my answer.

I recently met someone in her 30s and somehow it came up in our conversation that both of our fathers had died when we were kids. A 3rd woman who I'm pretty friendly with and was part of that conversation was surprised to hear that, she said she never knew that about me. The other yesoma was shocked that people could not know that about me, she said she uses it as an excuse all the time. I was so sad for her, she's an adult still using something that happened when she was a child as a crutch. How can she ever live a healthy life? I wonder what it must be like for her husband to have to deal with that.

If this mother isn't careful her dd will end up like this other woman.

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Apr 05 2021, 12:53 pm

I found the article interesting because I was once in a very similar situation: I teach English and I taught Our Town for several years (the school I currently work in doesn’t have it as part of its curriculum), and during those years I had two students who had lost their father. It is impossible to teach the book and not talk about grief and death—it’s central to the plot. Neither student requested a change in the curriculum or to be excused from the discussion, and I don’t know how I would’ve handled it if they had: I hope I would have shown sensitivity to their situation, though replacing the book entirely (each book was studied for 5-6 weeks) would have been a challenge, especially if I was notified last second.

As it happens, one of the two students wrote a comment on the exam thanking me for the unit—in her home, her father was not talked about (her mother found it too painful) and she really appreciated having the opportunity to reflect on the memories of her father, who passed away when she was a toddler.

The other student didn’t participate much in the unit but she chose to write about her father’s death during our memoir unit (students were able to choose any topic they wanted), and I think she found it cathartic.