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NYT Article about NYC Yeshivas not teaching basics
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amother




Smokey
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:09 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
40% of AMERICAN (non-jewish) Adults are illiterate and lacking basic math skills -
many are public school graduates.


Do you have a source for the 40% statistic?

This says 21% of US adults are illiterate.
https://www.libraryjournal.com.....oblem
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flowerpower




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:09 pm
I see tons of grammar and spelling mistakes on Social media comments etc and it’s not jewish people posting there so......
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:09 pm
SOW, here is a Wikipedia article on how publishing companies are replacing human editors/proof-readers with computerized grammar / spell checkers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_editing

There are certain mistakes artificial intelligence cannot catch and that is why there are more
errors creeping into secular published books.
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amother




Orange
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:10 pm
moonstone wrote:
I find it offensive that huge swaths of American Jewish men (and many women) are functionally illiterate in English.

This is totally a preconceived notion based on your own prejudices and experiences.
There are different cultures and mentalities out there.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:11 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
40% of AMERICAN (non-jewish) Adults are illiterate and lacking basic math skills -
many are public school graduates.


(It's 40 million, not 40%. About 14%. Still way too high).

https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:11 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
SOW, here is a Wikipedia article on how publishing companies are replacing human editors/proof-readers with computerized grammar / spell checkers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_editing

There are certain mistakes artificial intelligence cannot catch and that is why there are more
errors creeping into secular published books.


So you're now claiming that errors in books are the result of computerized systems, not a lack of education and knowledge of basic grammar, which was your original point.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:11 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Do you have a source for the 40% statistic?

This says 21% of US adults are illiterate.
https://www.libraryjournal.com.....oblem


There are all statistics for functional illiteracy. The most common I hear is 40%.

Here is ONE source, but if you google you will find plenty more:

https://www.researchomatic.com......html

Here is another source which says 54% of American Adults are illiterate:

https://markashwill.com/2020/1.....racy/
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:12 pm
simcha2 wrote:
(It's 40 million, not 40%. About 14%. Still way too high).

https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp


No, according to several sources it is 40% of Adults who are functionally illiterate.
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amother




Smokey
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:21 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
There are all statistics for functional illiteracy. The most common I hear is 40%.

Here is ONE source, but if you google you will find plenty more:

https://www.researchomatic.com......html


Here is another source which says 54% of American Adults are illiterate:

https://markashwill.com/2020/1.....racy/


Your first link says that "more than 4%" of US adults cannot read, and that 40% of people who are illiterate live in poverty. It does not say that 40% of US adults are illiterate.

Your second link discusses a report that says that 54% of US adults lack literary proficiency. Lacking literary proficiency is not the same thing as being illiterate. Per the report, included in this 54% figure are adults who "can read well enough to evaluate product reviews and perform other tasks that require comparisons and simple inferences, but they are unlikely to correctly evaluate the reliability of texts or draw sophisticated inferences."
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:25 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
No, according to several sources it is 40% of Adults who are functionally illiterate.


It quite clearly doesn't say that, if you access the report.

"Literary proficiency" is defined as Level 3 literacy. That would include the ability to read texts such as Stephen Hawkings' A Brief History of Time, or Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose. It requires the ability to integrate several sources of information and solve more complex problems. It is the level of literacy expected of a typical high school graduate.

"Functional literacy" is quite different. It includes the ability to read basic signs, or to fill out basic forms. One source defines it as the ability to locate one piece of information in a sports article, locate the expiration date on a driver’s license, and total a bank deposit entry.

Up to 40% of Americans lack "literary proficiency." But the vast majority of them are functionally literate, and even reach Level 2 literacy (able to read such works as To Kill a Mockingbird, or The Great Gatsby).
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:26 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
So you're now claiming that errors in books are the result of computerized systems, not a lack of education and knowledge of basic grammar, which was your original point.


You misunderstand.

The secular author, who is probably college educated, is making errors. THAT is my point!

In the past, human editors, would correct these errors so the public doesn't see how many
mistakes the writers are making.

Now that publishers have replaced human editors with computer grammar / spell checkers,
not all mistakes are being caught.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:01 pm
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
Interesting to note that you write that are doing right by withholding an education from your son's but you are not even givng them the gift of education that you yourself had. You, as a female, went to a bais yaakov and got a secular education that ironically helped you write your post.

Actually, I didn't go to Bais Yaakov. I went to a community day school. I had no secular education past 9th grade. I put a lot of thought in my decision about my children's education.

And to be honest, in elementary school my mother wrote most of my essays.

Quote:
As for Chabad. I have many relatives who are shluchim. They write posts on Facebook and those posts are full of errors. When a well-respected rabbi or rebbetzin writes a post full of errors, it detracts from them, at least in my opinion. These are native English speakers, and on the whole, their community doesn't realize that they didn't study normal English at school. It looks like they are uneducated.

I also find it annoying, I have a natural aptitude for writing and am particular about grammar and spelling.

But so what? The shluchim have incredible success, even if a few grammar snobs consider them uneducated boors.

I doubt either of us is old enough to remember this, but there was a time period in America where walking around without a tie was considered low-class and borderline disrespectful. Chabad bochurim still didn't wear one. Fitting in culturally (which academia is part of) is overrated.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:06 pm
Here is another source that says 40% of American Workers are functionally illiterate:

https://www.prweb.com/releases.....0.htm

Excerpt:

The extent of functional illiteracy is much worse than most people realize--the most extensive and accurate study of illiteracy ever commissioned by the U.S. government proves that more than 47% of U.S. adults cannot read and write well enough to hold an above-poverty-level job, alleviated only because more than one adult is employed in most families. Also, the seriousness of illiteracy is much worse than most people realize--it not only causes serious problems and suffering for the illiterates, it also costs each of us who can read at least $3700 each year for government programs that illiterates use, for the increased cost of consumer goods due to illiterates in the workplace, and for truancy/juvenile delinquency/crime related to illiteracy. But the good news is that a breakthrough solution has been developed that is much easier than anyone would dare to dream.
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moonstone




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:10 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
This is totally a preconceived notion based on your own prejudices and experiences.
There are different cultures and mentalities out there.


Not true, Anonymous Amother. I came to that conclusion after reading countless posts from women on this site about how the men in their communities can barely speak, read, or write English. How the women in these communities have to make all the English phone calls and fill out all the forms in English. I had no preconceived notions; I had absolutely no idea so many American chassidish men, born and bred in the USA, were functionally illiterate until I learned it here. I was shocked and, frankly, disgusted.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:11 pm
Quote:
#BestBubby wrote:
There are all statistics for functional illiteracy. The most common I hear is 40%.

Here is ONE source, but if you google you will find plenty more:

https://www.researchomatic.com......html


Here is another source which says 54% of American Adults are illiterate:

https://markashwill.com/2020/1.....racy/



Quote:
Your first link says that "more than 4%" of US adults cannot read, and that 40% of people who are illiterate live in poverty. It does not say that 40% of US adults are illiterate.

Your second link discusses a report that says that 54% of US adults lack literary proficiency. Lacking literary proficiency is not the same thing as being illiterate. Per the report, included in this 54% figure are adults who "can read well enough to evaluate product reviews and perform other tasks that require comparisons and simple inferences, but they are unlikely to correctly evaluate the reliability of texts or draw sophisticated inferences."



LOL Your honor, I rest my case! Nerd
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amother




Orange
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:13 pm
moonstone wrote:
Not true, Anonymous Amother. I came to that conclusion after reading countless posts from women on this site about how the men in their communities can barely speak, read, or write English. How the women in these communities have to make all the English phone calls and fill out all the forms in English. I had no preconceived notions; I had absolutely no idea so many American chassidish men, born and bred in the USA, were functionally illiterate until I learned it here. I was shocked and, frankly, disgusted.

Your shock and disgust is based on your preconceived ideas of how people should be educated.
Perhaps other people have different priorities. No need to be disgusted.
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amother




Amber
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:16 pm
moonstone wrote:
Not true, Anonymous Amother. I came to that conclusion after reading countless posts from women on this site about how the men in their communities can barely speak, read, or write English. How the women in these communities have to make all the English phone calls and fill out all the forms in English. I had no preconceived notions; I had absolutely no idea so many American chassidish men, born and bred in the USA, were functionally illiterate until I learned it here. I was shocked and, frankly, disgusted.


According to this thread, all of the men are geniuses and/or millionaires. Further education is pointless and stupid.

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....25187

I wish people would make up their minds! Banging head
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amother




Copper
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:48 pm
I'm really tired of hearing people say that a yeshiva student can go take a writing course and go straight to law school.
I took the LSAT. I scored in the 90+ percentile.
The Logic Games portion would be easy for a yeshiva student- it's all puzzle and diagramming, with pretty simple vocabulary.
But the rest... isn't. This is a sample question from the Logical Reasoning section:

Quote:
Executive: We recently ran a set of advertisements in the print version of a travel magazine and on that magazine’s website. We were unable to get any direct information about consumer response to the print ads. However, we found that consumer response to the ads on the website was much more limited than is typical for website ads. We concluded that consumer response to the print ads was probably below par as well.

The executive’s reasoning does which one of the following?

A) bases a prediction of the intensity of a phenomenon on information about the intensity of that phenomenon’s cause
B) uses information about the typical frequency of events of a general kind to draw a conclusion about the probability of a particular event of that kind
C) infers a statistical generalization from claims about a large number of specific instances
D) uses a case in which direct evidence is available to draw a conclusion about an analogous case in which direct evidence is unavailable
E) bases a prediction about future events on facts about recent comparable events


You need an excellent vocabulary, a deep grounding in syntax, and the ability to read English fast.
Even the logical reasoning 'rules' of Gemara don't always apply so well to the rules of secular logical reasoning.

Totally doable without preexisting knowledge in Math and Science.
Doable without years of reading complex English texts? (Not YWN. Even NYTimes won't get you far.) Good luck getting into law school.
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amother




Orange
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:50 pm
amother [ Amber ] wrote:
According to this thread, all of the men are geniuses and/or millionaires. Further education is pointless and stupid.

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....25187

I wish people would make up their minds! Banging head

You missed the parts about: yeshivos helping them to earn a degree, targeting education for a specific career, and training on the job.

It seems people don't like when others can be successful without the standard years of education, or maybe when others have different value systems.

What's with being stuck in your own box? There are many ways to be successful in this world and excelling at English grammar doesn't have to be a prerequisite.

We would all be surprised at what Shaar Habitachon says about where parnasa comes from.
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amother




Indigo
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:56 pm
moonstone wrote:
Not true, Anonymous Amother. I came to that conclusion after reading countless posts from women on this site about how the men in their communities can barely speak, read, or write English. How the women in these communities have to make all the English phone calls and fill out all the forms in English. I had no preconceived notions; I had absolutely no idea so many American chassidish men, born and bred in the USA, were functionally illiterate until I learned it here. I was shocked and, frankly, disgusted.


Ok. Be disgusted😆
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