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NYT Article about NYC Yeshivas not teaching basics
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amother




Salmon
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:11 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
It is My girls and I attended Satmar school - not me and my girls. You wouldn't say me attended Satmar school or hopefully you wouldn't.

It is also it's entrenched and not its entrenched. In this context it's is being substituted for it is and the apostrophe indicates this. Without the apostrophe, it has a different function and meaning.

Just pointing out that the grammar taught at your school might not be as good as you think.

Yippee hooray for the grammer police.

Nothing to do with my school system, mostly to do with my grammer abilities.

I hope bad middos are not on my roster though.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:11 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
You missed the parts about: yeshivos helping them to earn a degree, targeting education for a specific career, and training on the job.

It seems people don't like when others can be successful without the standard years of education, or maybe when others have different value systems.

What's with being stuck in your own box? There are many ways to be successful in this world and excelling at English grammar doesn't have to be a prerequisite.

We would all be surprised at what Shaar Habitachon says about where parnasa comes from.


Of course people can be successful without a formal education.

Statistically, however, most successful people do have a formal education. The fact that Bill Gates left Harvard before receiving his degree (but after taking graduate level courses) doesn't mean that the average Joe is going to found Microsoft. Any more than the fact that Merrick Garland is Attorney General means that there's no antisemitism. Rather, we know that on the whole, people with college degrees earn substantially more than those without degrees; and that those who have literacy challenges generally fare very poorly in the workforce.

On this site, I read a large number of posts from people discussing the receipt of government largesse -- food stamps, Medicaid, Section 8 housing; I read of people receiving tomchei Shabbat, and tzedaka food boxes for holidays. A 2018 article claimed, "There are only 240,000 ultra-Orthodox Jews in the greater New York area, but they are impoverished (43% are defined as poor and 16% as near poor). They get by via a mix of mostly badly paid work and increasingly on government assistance. " The figure is about 19% for all NYCers. Many right-wing Jewish communities have infrastructure that provides assistance in filling out welfare applications, and in contesting adverse decisions. All of this tells me that, at least from a financial POV, the system isn't working.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:26 pm
SixOfWands wrote:


On this site, I read a large number of posts from people discussing the receipt of government largesse -- food stamps, Medicaid, Section 8 housing; I read of people receiving tomchei Shabbat, and tzedaka food boxes for holidays. A 2018 article claimed, "There are only 240,000 ultra-Orthodox Jews in the greater New York area, but they are impoverished (43% are defined as poor and 16% as near poor). They get by via a mix of mostly badly paid work and increasingly on government assistance. " The figure is about 19% for all NYCers. Many right-wing Jewish communities have infrastructure that provides assistance in filling out welfare applications, and in contesting adverse decisions. All of this tells me that, at least from a financial POV, the system isn't working.


This is an interesting conversation. The issue is many-fold:

1) Jews have to live in urban communities with Judaic infrastructure, in limited areas with housing prices artificially inflated

2) Judaic infrastructure, as well as Torah lifestyles, are substantially more expensive than secular living, which can rely on free schooling, no membership fees to synagogues, cheaper food items, and minimal holidays and "life events". They also have far less children.

3) The status symbol in many sects of Judaism is the image of the kollel man, eschewing materialism for knowledge. It's the secular version of the eternal student. Also status symbol: many children.

4) Large and extended families mean that more people chose lifestyle over career satisfaction when searching for career opportunities. They get married earlier, so they look for shortcuts to obtaining a job. That means that they pick teaching in a Jewish school, which pays a pittance, over starting the long haul to become a doctor, or an attorney.

5) Legal government welfare plans that punish those working to better their situation, and reward those who are kept beholden to the services they are given.

All of these factors are not easily resolvable, if at all. I don't know if it means the "system isn't working", but that we need to look at options that can ease the burden. A new initiative where Chasidim all purchased Tampa homes and are starting a community there is one such initiative. Cheaper housing, yet going en masse so as to provide instant community and infrastructure of schools, mikvahs, shuls, etc.
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amother




Silver
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:56 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
Yippee hooray for the grammer police.

Nothing to do with my school system, mostly to do with my grammer abilities.

I hope bad middos are not on my roster though.


As I posted, I would never gratuitously correct someone's grammar or spelling. Depending on your profession, they would also be noted as you spoke to colleagues or misused in written communication even if not explicitly critiqued.

However, the post "boasted" about the excellent education in grammar the poster had received. I was just pointing out that the education received might not have been as excellent as the poster thought.

I am not sure how most people acquire writing skills - e.g. grammar and spelling - other than through classwork. Of course, having parents and others around who use proper grammar is equally important.

Perhaps instead of getting defensive, one might actually use the knowledge - that is what education is about.
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amother




Salmon
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 3:58 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
As I posted, I would never gratuitously correct someone's grammar or spelling. Depending on your profession, they would also be noted as you spoke to colleagues or misused in written communication even if not explicitly critiqued.

However, the post "boasted" about the excellent education in grammar the poster had received. I was just pointing out that the education received might not have been as excellent as the poster thought.

I am not sure how most people acquire writing skills - e.g. grammar and spelling - other than through classwork. Of course, having parents and others around who use proper grammar is equally important.

Perhaps instead of getting defensive, one might actually use the knowledge - that is what education is about.


I wrote that I learned,
that doesn't mean that I know it well though. Would you like me to test you on all the subjects you've learned?

FYI, I wasn't a good student, because I have a concentration issue. Plus I'm 30 years past school, I am not gonna blame my illiteracy on my school.
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:13 pm
I didn't read all the comments here, but every single thing both her and Chaim say in the video is true. I witnessed it first hand with my boys. Luckily one of them is now in a better school which teaches secular subjects, but the other ones it was too late and they are now "stuck". If the government doesn't step in and make changes nothing will happen. But as soon as they try to do anything there is this huge outcry from the community about them trying to get involved in how we teach, antisemitism, etc etc............
It's infuriating to me. Why do you want this for your children? You can have both religious studies and secular subjects at least covering a decent amount that they can get by on. Nobody is saying you need to study the topics that could get "iffY" and conflict with religious teachings.

For those saying public school is "bubkes" please stop trying to distract from the core issue at hand. Yes, some pubic school students are doing poorly etc, but in general an average student is learning way more than the average yeshiva boy.
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amother




Gray
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:17 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

For those saying public school is "bubkes" please stop trying to distract from the core issue at hand. Yes, some pubic school students are doing poorly etc, but in general an average student is learning way more than the average yeshiva boy.


I agree. And apples should be compared to apples, not to oranges. Don't compare a yeshiva school to an inner city public school. Compare it to a public school in a good area, with kids from stable homes who value education.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:23 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
I agree. And apples should be compared to apples, not to oranges. Don't compare a yeshiva school to an inner city public school. Compare it to a public school in a good area, with kids from stable homes who value education.

Yes, and also compare success appropriately. Don't compare the secular measure of success (career, prestige, money) to success for a frum Jew (Yiddishkeit, stable home, adequate parnasa).

(edited to make less judgmental)
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amother




Gray
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:30 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
Yes, and also compare success appropriately. Don't compare success for a WASP (career, prestige, money) to success for a frum Jew (Yiddishkeit, stable home, adequate parnasa).


Wow. That's a judgmental post with a lot of assumptions. You don't think that WASPs consider a good family life to be part of success?
And you don't think that many, many frum Jews consider success to be far more than adequate parnassa?

In any case, according to this thread and many others, many frum Jews aren't making adequate parnassa for their lifestyle, which is necessarily more expensive than a secular person's lifestyle. They need to make MORE to cover costs, rather than less. Having more kids, going to private school, buying kosher food, buying sheitals, having fancy yom tov meals, all require money.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:35 pm
My son is in yeshiva with very little secular education. I don't know exactly how much he will earn, but one thing I know for sure he will definitely earn more than my cleaning ladies son that has a better education. I see my family members with yeshiva education around me, In various professions, that they took a few month course, being very successful. In my building have non Jewish families who send their kids to public school majority have minimum wage jobs
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:37 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
The average child in Hungary went to Public School until the 8th grade.
The boys had Cheder in the afternoon.
The girls and boys were together in one class.

I will verify if this was any different in Poland and Galicia.

This is not true. The average girl in Hungary may have gone to public school but the average boy went to cheder.
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amother




Gray
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:42 pm
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
My son is in yeshiva with very little secular education. I don't know exactly how much he will earn, but one thing I know for sure he will definitely earn more than my cleaning ladies son that has a better education. I see my family members with yeshiva education around me, In various professions, that they took a few month course, being very successful. In my building have non Jewish families who send their kids to public school majority have minimum wage jobs


What few month course can one take that will make the average yeshiva boy very successful? Please let us know.
As for your non-Jewish neighbours, did they send their kids to a good public school or a bad one? Also, one very important factor in determining future income is the socio-economic background you come from. It forges your expectations, your confidence, and your lifestyle. If the non-Jewish families you live near are all from the lower economic classes, then chances are high their kids will be too. If you are middle class, chances are your kids will be too.

I went to public school. Most of my classmates are earning far, far above minimum wage. Most of them own nice spacious homes and are quite well off.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:43 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
This is an interesting conversation. The issue is many-fold:

1) Jews have to live in urban communities with Judaic infrastructure, in limited areas with housing prices artificially inflated

2) Judaic infrastructure, as well as Torah lifestyles, are substantially more expensive than secular living, which can rely on free schooling, no membership fees to synagogues, cheaper food items, and minimal holidays and "life events". They also have far less children.

3) The status symbol in many sects of Judaism is the image of the kollel man, eschewing materialism for knowledge. It's the secular version of the eternal student. Also status symbol: many children.

4) Large and extended families mean that more people chose lifestyle over career satisfaction when searching for career opportunities. They get married earlier, so they look for shortcuts to obtaining a job. That means that they pick teaching in a Jewish school, which pays a pittance, over starting the long haul to become a doctor, or an attorney.

5) Legal government welfare plans that punish those working to better their situation, and reward those who are kept beholden to the services they are given.

All of these factors are not easily resolvable, if at all. I don't know if it means the "system isn't working", but that we need to look at options that can ease the burden. A new initiative where Chasidim all purchased Tampa homes and are starting a community there is one such initiative. Cheaper housing, yet going en masse so as to provide instant community and infrastructure of schools, mikvahs, shuls, etc.


Nos. 1 through 3 demonstrate how dire the poverty really is in some communities. The US government doesn't recognize the greater financial needs of frum Jews, so when they're living under the poverty line, it is in essence even worse for them. Eg, a childhood friend subscribed me to a Jewish -- but not kosher -- food group on Facebook. One person was bragging about finding brisket for under $1 a pound; others lamented spending an outrageous $2.99 a pound. You really don't want to know what I paid. Obviously, one need not eat brisket, or any meat. But it still demonstrates the extreme additional costs to keep kosher.

I've long said that 5 needs to change, eliminating so-called "cliffs." I also despise "corporate welfare" -- where companies pay their employees to little that the government is forced to supplement with welfare programs.

To me, a systemic failure is where a large percentage of people live in poverty. (FTR, I would also call it a systemic failure if a large percentage didn't remain frum.)

Instead of getting our backs up and claiming that everything is fine -- that everyone can succeed, and the very large numbers who don't, well, I don't know -- we need to find solutions. I don't pretend to have those solutions.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:50 pm
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
My son is in yeshiva with very little secular education. I don't know exactly how much he will earn, but one thing I know for sure he will definitely earn more than my cleaning ladies son that has a better education. I see my family members with yeshiva education around me, In various professions, that they took a few month course, being very successful. In my building have non Jewish families who send their kids to public school majority have minimum wage jobs


My cleaning lady's daughter has a master's degree, and works for a Fortune 500 company in HR. (Her oldest son has learning differences, so she only works part time.)

Her son was an executive with a major hotel chain, but lost his job during the covid crisis.

But I'm curious. Most people I know live in economically segregated areas. Minimum wage earners rarely live next door to people who are "very successful." Even in buildings that were required to include lower cost housing, there was always a "poor door" so that there was no interaction. Where do you live where you are "very successful" after taking a course for a few months, but live among people living in poverty.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:58 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
This is not true. The average girl in Hungary may have gone to public school but the average boy went to cheder.


My understanding was that boys who couldn't afford cheder went only for a few years and then were taught a trade.
The frum community no longer lets kids enter the workforce but some of them might benefit if they had some training. My understanding is that this year, fewer secular teens have signed up for summer jobs so maybe it isn't limited to frum people.
Some people are not cut out for years of learning nor do they have an interest in a profession that requires college so there needs to be some job training.
I do feel bad for grown men (of any religion) who ring up groceries and drive school buses. It's a shame that they can't work at a fulfilling job.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:59 pm
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
. If the government doesn't step in and make changes nothing will happen. But as soon as they try to do anything there is this huge outcry from the community about them trying to get involved in how we teach, antisemitism, etc etc............


For those saying public school is "bubkes" please stop trying to distract from the core issue at hand. Yes, some pubic school students are doing poorly etc, but in general an average student is learning way more than the average yeshiva.


I don’t understand this at all. Why must we insist the government step in to make changes? If your child’s education infuriates you, vote with your feet, or if that’s impossible, raise a group of like-minded people to storm your principal’s office. Make a petition. Have someone get up in shul and talk about it. Hold a fundraiser for tutors for all the children to bring awareness. Learned helplessness and forcing government into a nanny role astonishes me.
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amother




Gray
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 5:03 pm
southernbubby wrote:

I do feel bad for grown men (of any religion) who ring up groceries and drive school buses. It's a shame that they can't work at a fulfilling job.


Why?
כל עבודה מכבדת את בעליה

Why do you think a bus driver necessarily isn't fulfilled, or doesn't like his job?
And do you feel bad for women cashiers too?
I'm not saying one should aim to work at minimum wage jobs, but I wouldn't go so far as to feel bad for them. Some people are proud and happy with this work.
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amother




Gray
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 5:09 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
I don’t understand this at all. Why must we insist the government step in to make changes? If your child’s education infuriates you, vote with your feet, or if that’s impossible, raise a group of like-minded people to storm your principal’s office. Make a petition. Have someone get up in shul and talk about it. Hold a fundraiser for tutors for all the children to bring awareness. Learned helplessness and forcing government into a nanny role astonishes me.


First, it seems this petition was started by a woman who can't vote with her feet. She is being forced by the courts to send her kids to these schools. I totally understand her bitterness.

Second, some people feel they need to send to these schools for social/community reasons. I don't live in such a conformist place, but I understand some people do. They feel like they can't vote with their feet without paying a very heavy price.

Third, the government is responsible for lots of things. You can't just decide to keep your kids home and teach them nothing but basket weaving, for example.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 5:55 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
Why?
כל עבודה מכבדת את בעליה

Why do you think a bus driver necessarily isn't fulfilled, or doesn't like his job?
And do you feel bad for women cashiers too?
I'm not saying one should aim to work at minimum wage jobs, but I wouldn't go so far as to feel bad for them. Some people are proud and happy with this work.


I feel bad for anyone who has no choice but low level employment. Usually the school buses, which hire frum drivers, only run sporadically unlike the city buses that run all day. I don't see too many frum people driving city buses and even the Monsey Trails drivers are not all frum. Some frum men are car service drivers and a few frum women do it.
I don't see much steady employment in it or any creativity or use of intellect so I would think that many people who do this type of work wish that they could do something else.
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amother




Wheat
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 5:58 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
I agree. And apples should be compared to apples, not to oranges. Don't compare a yeshiva school to an inner city public school. Compare it to a public school in a good area, with kids from stable homes who value education.

True. I've worked in a few public schools, and there are plenty of very good to excellent ones out there. Frum people tend to live in large urban areas, so for many, their exposure and observations are limited to inner city schools which is a different ball of wax.
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