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NYT Article about NYC Yeshivas not teaching basics
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amother




Lime
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 7:34 pm
tigerwife wrote:
I hate generalizations like this.



I have some issues with the article but I wouldn't say it's a generalization. Do you honestly think ultra chassidish schools that have an hour or so secular studies a day are offering a legitimate education. Not to mention they ban the library and secular books.
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amother




Smokey
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 7:38 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
Why are Jews their own worst enemies?
This keeps happening, and we all know you can’t compare Frum boys and girls Middos to public school students.


How insulting. We don't all know that. I've met plenty of public school graduates with lovely middos and plenty of frum Jews with terrible middos.

The public school bashing on this forum is really absurd. It doesn't have to be the best choice for you to still be a great choice for other people. And people who can't defend their own choices without insulting other peoples' choices need to work on their insecurities.
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tigerwife




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:12 pm
amother [ Lime ] wrote:
I have some issues with the article but I wouldn't say it's a generalization. Do you honestly think ultra chassidish schools that have an hour or so secular studies a day are offering a legitimate education. Not to mention they ban the library and secular books.


For most of the world, ultra orthodox does not equal ultra chassidish. It means men with a beard and yarmulka, women in midi skirts and wigs.

Statements like this-
Quote:

What do you want to be when you grow up? That’s not a common question for boys attending ultra-Orthodox yeshivas in New York.

-make frum Jewry out to be dream-squashing and dreary.

I definitely agree that that the quality of secular education in many boys’ schools is terrible and needs to be remedied. I do think that there is much more nuance than what the article states. Many parents are expecting a dual education at about $6,000 a year in tuition. They want Judaic history and world history, dikduk and grammar, scientific method and the ability to pierce through Gemara with multiple sources, taught by teachers who get paid minimum wage. How is this possible? No yeshiva with a quality secular department has tuition as cheap as a chassidish mosed.

I know it isn’t simple to just send to another school. For your kids’ sake, hire tutors for at least the basics of math and English so that they can learn other subjects by reading at their own pace. I agree that this way isn’t great either; the average kid isn’t interested in more tutoring after a full day of school.

I think most upsetting to me here is the poster who wrote that her boys don’t even learn proper Yiddish either. Forget about dual education; if you aren’t learning even your preferred language correctly, what are you learning?

ETA: I realize I am generalizing as well. I’m sure many parents would pay for a quality education but it isn’t an option.


Last edited by tigerwife on Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Jetblack
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:12 pm
naomi2 wrote:
She's trying to fight city hall here, and I mean the chabad institution as well as the real city hall. She should know better than anyone else how far the Lubavitch community would go to fulfill the Rebbe's wish.
Besides for that, I agree that yeshivas should teach their students English subjects and most in Flatbush do. However, airing our dirty laundry in public takes away all the sympathy I had for this parent. And, it's laughable now when public schools are on zoom and learning zilch.


What does this mean?
Lubavitch doesn't hold a candle to other chassidish schools. The schools will not teach English on principle but as a community there's no stigma. There are after school English and math classes. They go on shlichus as bochurim. My husband can't write a proper email but he reads for leisure books on politics and business, discusses philosophy, chums it up with the wealthiest secular people. Lubavitch is way better in this regard than Yiddish speaking communities (where the boys have a thick Yiddish accent when speaking English).
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:22 pm
Here's a suggestion: immediately dismiss any article and any publication that uses the vile expression "ultra-Orthodox."
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amother




Beige
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:22 pm
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
What does this mean?
Lubavitch doesn't hold a candle to other chassidish schools. The schools will not teach English on principle but as a community there's no stigma. There are after school English and math classes. They go on shlichus as bochurim. My husband can't write a proper email but he reads for leisure books on politics and business, discusses philosophy, chums it up with the wealthiest secular people. Lubavitch is way better in this regard than Yiddish speaking communities (where the boys have a thick Yiddish accent when speaking English).


I take it you're a Lubavitcher so I'll address your post as one. As a Lubavitcher, knowing what the Rebbeim said about learning secular subjects, I don't know any very Chassidishe families that would send their boys to after school english classes. Mivtzoim and merkos shlichus give an incredible amount of both soft skills and quantitative skills which are extremely valuable but that's very different than devoting in class time to limudei chol.
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amother




Beige
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:23 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
Is her son in a chabad cheder?


Yes, the yeshiva they speak about is Oholei Torah, the biggest Lubavitch cheder and yeshiva in CH.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:24 pm
Crown Heights has GED courses that are offered to OT graduates and Touro may still have some type of remedial program. I am not saying that this is a substitute for a real education but OT graduates often get degrees and good jobs. My son, who has a master's degree in special education, went to OT during his yeshiva years.
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amother




Linen
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:27 pm
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
Yes, the yeshiva they speak about is Oholei Torah, the biggest Lubavitch cheder and yeshiva in CH.

I thought Levin who joined her crusade went to Oholei Torah.
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amother




Amber
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:35 pm
We have so many posters here, complaining that their husbands have no work skills, and cannot earn enough to support the family. And yet, these same mothers are sending their own kids to the same schools. Why? For shidduchim? To please the inlaws? Where are the priorities?

Girls only get a marginally better education. Mostly they are taught over and over again how their holy purpose in life is to be a wife and a mother, regardless of what the girl actually wants to do with her life. Any other thoughts about the future are automatically dismissed and sneered at.

I'd rather send to a public school, and teach kodesh at home, than send to a frum school, and have to teach chol at home.
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amother




Beige
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:43 pm
amother [ Amber ] wrote:
We have so many posters here, complaining that their husbands have no work skills, and cannot earn enough to support the family. And yet, these same mothers are sending their own kids to the same schools. Why? For shidduchim? To please the inlaws? Where are the priorities?

Girls only get a marginally better education. Mostly they are taught over and over again how their holy purpose in life is to be a wife and a mother, regardless of what the girl actually wants to do with her life. Any other thoughts about the future are automatically dismissed and sneered at.

I'd rather send to a public school, and teach kodesh at home, than send to a frum school, and have to teach chol at home.


This here is a hashkafa in Chinuch that I can never understand. Our goal in this world is to fulfill the will of Hashem, how can you choose an education with a focus on secular ideals as a higher priority than a focus on Torah ideals? I teach my boys limudei chol at home because there are some skills I want them to have, but to sacrifice their Torah for the sake of a better job? How can I do that?
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amother




Red
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:54 pm
tigerwife wrote:


For most of the world, ultra orthodox does not equal ultra chassidish. It means men with a beard and yarmulka, women in midi skirts and wigs.

.


Most of the complainers are graduates of chassidishe places.
It doesn't matter how the world views orthodoxy, it matters who is not getting the proper education.

If they would at least be getting a proper Yiddish/ halacha/ gemara education, they would have an excuse. But they don't.
Ask your boys in cheder about their day.
Much of the time the Rebbe is out on hafsaka, they cover very little ground in learning, don't learn much halacha, no tanach, no Yiddish writing, reading or spelling, only occasionally if they have a good melamed.
I am not sending my kid to Cheder so he can come home to tell me that my phone is not kosher. I am sending him to learn.
Not paying enough tuition is no excuse.
The Rebbe is in the classroom, and should not be wasting so much time.
The girls are taught way more on the same budget.
At this point they would need the women to teach the boys so they can catch up.
There are hardly any good boys melamdim because they got the same education they are giving.
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amother




Aquamarine
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 8:56 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
As long as yeshivos and chedarim don’t teach the basics they will have articles like this.
As a mother of Chassidishe boys it pains me that they need to use a calculator to add and subtract numbers over 20, they didn’t learn how to do it on paper) cannot multiply or divide, and definitely don’t know anything more in mathematics.
They cannot talk to their own dentist and their spelling is awful.
We’re not talking rocket science here.
Our kids deserve better.

I have had chasidishe male bosses, graduates from Satmar and Bobov who spoke English and did very well in life. Then there were chasidishe male guys (colleagues) from KJ and New Sqvere who struggled and in many cases needed an interpreter. I also met lubavitch guys, who spoke perfect English, went to college and said that college was easier then yeshiva. Spinka, Pupa, and other chasidishe yeshivas provide secular studies as well. So I guess it varies by community and most men will do just fine.
Its really those that go otd that struggle as they have to succeed in the secular world which is problematic to begin with as the schools dont necessarily teach life skills for the secular world because the goal is to keep people in the community. Both authors are otd so they are complaining because they dont have their community to fall back on and the secular world is very different than the insular chasidish communities (although chabad is not insular so they should have explained the differences and why their struggles would be different than say someone from KJ or WB).
At the end of the day, parnassah comes from Hashem. Plenty of Satmar men are rich while plenty of non-satmar people with higher education struggle. So its not really education that determines your income, its Hashem and these otd people who are complaining dont have faith so they rely more on education. Not sure how the govt can change that..
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amother




Red
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:00 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
I have had chasidishe male bosses, graduates from Satmar and Bobov who spoke English and did very well in life. Then there were chasidishe male guys (colleagues) from KJ and New Sqvere who struggled and in many cases needed an interpreter. I also met lubavitch guys, who spoke perfect English, went to college and said that college was easier then yeshiva. Spinka, Pupa, and other chasidishe yeshivas provide secular studies as well. So I guess it varies by community and most men will do just fine.
Its really those that go otd that struggle as they have to succeed in the secular world which is problematic to begin with as the schools dont necessarily teach life skills for the secular world because the goal is to keep people in the community. Both authors are otd so they are complaining because they dont have their community to fall back on and the secular world is very different than the insular chasidish communities (although chabad is not insular so they should have explained the differences and why their struggles would be different than say someone from KJ or WB).
At the end of the day, parnassah comes from Hashem. Plenty of Satmar men are rich while plenty of non-satmar people with higher education struggle. So its not really education that determines your income, its Hashem and these otd people who are complaining dont have faith so they rely more on education. Not sure how the govt can change that..


It's not about a future income.
Judaism values knowledge.
Our kids are growing up with no Jewish knowledge as well as basic knowledge like reading, writing, spelling and math.
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amother




Beige
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:03 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
It's not about a future income.
Judaism values knowledge.
Our kids are growing up with no Jewish knowledge as well as basic knowledge like reading, writing, spelling and math.


Are you really sending your kids to a school that doesn't even teach limudei kodesh well? Then you have a bigger problem on your hands, what's the point in sending to school if they don't learn anything?
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amother




Aquamarine
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:04 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
It's not about a future income.
Judaism values knowledge.
Our kids are growing up with no Jewish knowledge as well as basic knowledge like reading, writing, spelling and math.

Perhaps you should specify which yeshiva you speak of since many of the chasidishe men (Satmar, bobov) I have worked are educated enough to run their own businesses successfully. And the chabad guys speak English at home so they certainly dont struggle with that and have even said that college is easier than yeshiva. So please specify which yeshiva you are referring to when you say that they dont get Jewish knowledge or basic knowledge like reading, writing, spelling, etc
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amother




Rose
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:06 pm
Can’t speak for chassidim but we’re Yeshivish, DH is an M.D. he went to the most right wing Yeshiva in the city he grew up in and had limited English studies. He is smart and extremely motivated so he pulled it off. It really changed my perspective on the Yeshiva system. There is soooo much that you can learn on your own if ur determined ..
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amother




Red
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:08 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Perhaps you should specify which yeshiva you speak of since many of the chasidishe men (Satmar, bobov) I have worked are educated enough to run their own businesses successfully. And the chabad guys speak English at home so they certainly dont struggle with that and have even said that college is easier than yeshiva. So please specify which yeshiva you are referring to when you say that they dont get Jewish knowledge or basic knowledge like reading, writing, spelling, etc


No one said Satmar and Bobov are earning nicely because of their education. They said despite their education.

See my previous post about this not being about any future income.
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amother




Papaya
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:10 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
It's not about a future income.
Judaism values knowledge.
Our kids are growing up with no Jewish knowledge as well as basic knowledge like reading, writing, spelling and math.


I would like to know where you are sending your children where they have no knowledge? Where the rebbe is out to lunch most of the day? Definitely not in my children’s cheder. They are actually quite strict and learn a lot.
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amother




Aquamarine
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:29 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
No one said Satmar and Bobov are earning nicely because of their education. They said despite their education.

See my previous post about this not being about any future income.

How many people can be successful without any education? Of course Hashem runs the world and decides parnassah so you can be poor even with the best education or rich without an education but Talmud is one of the best ways to get an education. It doesnt just teach you to memorize anything, it teaches you to argue and ask questions and do math and whatnot. Ask the Koreans or the Japanese who are involved in studying Talmud because they want to be like the Jews-- https://www.newyorker.com/book.....korea

So as I said previously, the chasidishe bosses I worked for were successful just fine even without a college degree (which is ultimately what the otd authors want in the first place). So please specify which yeshivas you are speaking of that dont even provide any basic english or Jewish studies (minus those from KJ or New Sqver where families can opt out of english studies).
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