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NYT Article about NYC Yeshivas not teaching basics
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 6:08 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
I don’t understand this at all. Why must we insist the government step in to make changes? If your child’s education infuriates you, vote with your feet, or if that’s impossible, raise a group of like-minded people to storm your principal’s office. Make a petition. Have someone get up in shul and talk about it. Hold a fundraiser for tutors for all the children to bring awareness. Learned helplessness and forcing government into a nanny role astonishes me.


There is some sort of grant where people who are in college to study education work with these kids at home to provide secular education. I have seen it and the woman keeps the child focused so that he grasps the concepts.
I take my grandchildren to the library but now due to Covid I can take one at a time. Now they know about topics such as anteaters and Machu Picchu (today's selection).
I do see frum people in the library but we can't blame the school if people don't go. Even the Community Connection magazine has interesting animals and the problem with the Suez canal. We can try to raise literate kids who know something about the world. And will someone please explain how kids who get little or no secular studies manage to read every single Harry Potter book?
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 6:10 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
My cleaning lady's daughter has a master's degree, and works for a Fortune 500 company in HR. (Her oldest son has learning differences, so she only works part time.)

Her son was an executive with a major hotel chain, but lost his job during the covid crisis.

But I'm curious. Most people I know live in economically segregated areas. Minimum wage earners rarely live next door to people who are "very successful." Even in buildings that were required to include lower cost housing, there was always a "poor door" so that there was no interaction. Where do you live where you are "very successful" after taking a course for a few months, but live among people living in poverty.

I live in a mixed neighborhood. I see a pattern with the public school kids. the kids that live with more stable family life are much more successful than the ones with not stable families, regardless of their education. And yes, most of my family members are very successful financially some on Amazon, real estate, computer programmers, graphic artists, business men... Your cleaning ladies children are exception to the rule.. It doesn't usually happen. It's extremely rare. The fact s that the chasidishe kids make more now than the cleaning ladies kids with the better education. Because they are smarter and work harder, and they have a support system
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amother




Emerald
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 7:16 pm
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
Why?
כל עבודה מכבדת את בעליה

Why do you think a bus driver necessarily isn't fulfilled, or doesn't like his job?
And do you feel bad for women cashiers too?
I'm not saying one should aim to work at minimum wage jobs, but I wouldn't go so far as to feel bad for them. Some people are proud and happy with this work.


I hate to argue, but the fact is that I have friends who's husbands are cashiers and bus drivers. They may or may not be fulfilled at their jobs, but their wives certainly aren't happy when they have to work three jobs themselves to make ends meet. Just a thought.
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amother




Emerald
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 7:21 pm
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
I live in a mixed neighborhood. I see a pattern with the public school kids. the kids that live with more stable family life are much more successful than the ones with not stable families, regardless of their education. And yes, most of my family members are very successful financially some on Amazon, real estate, computer programmers, graphic artists, business men... Your cleaning ladies children are exception to the rule.. It doesn't usually happen. It's extremely rare. The fact s that the chasidishe kids make more now than the cleaning ladies kids with the better education. Because they are smarter and work harder, and they have a support system


I'm curious how someone would know if a relative is financially successful. I know for a fact that people consider us to be financially successful yet we absolutely are not. Many people live deep in credit card debt and home equity loans, owing tens of thousands of dollars to various friends and relatives, and while they seem to be living comfortably, it's all a show. While the guy next door in his small bilevel and older model car may have millions in the bank!
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amother




Brunette
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:26 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
I'm really tired of hearing people say that a yeshiva student can go take a writing course and go straight to law school.
I took the LSAT. I scored in the 90+ percentile.
The Logic Games portion would be easy for a yeshiva student- it's all puzzle and diagramming, with pretty simple vocabulary.
But the rest... isn't. This is a sample question from the Logical Reasoning section:

Quote:
Executive: We recently ran a set of advertisements in the print version of a travel magazine and on that magazine’s website. We were unable to get any direct information about consumer response to the print ads. However, we found that consumer response to the ads on the website was much more limited than is typical for website ads. We concluded that consumer response to the print ads was probably below par as well.

The executive’s reasoning does which one of the following?

A) bases a prediction of the intensity of a phenomenon on information about the intensity of that phenomenon’s cause
B) uses information about the typical frequency of events of a general kind to draw a conclusion about the probability of a particular event of that kind
C) infers a statistical generalization from claims about a large number of specific instances
D) uses a case in which direct evidence is available to draw a conclusion about an analogous case in which direct evidence is unavailable
E) bases a prediction about future events on facts about recent comparable events


You need an excellent vocabulary, a deep grounding in syntax, and the ability to read English fast.
Even the logical reasoning 'rules' of Gemara don't always apply so well to the rules of secular logical reasoning.

Totally doable without preexisting knowledge in Math and Science.
Doable without years of reading complex English texts? (Not YWN. Even NYTimes won't get you far.) Good luck getting into law school.


I have a chassidish family member who taught himself legalese and can read and understand legal documents better than many college educated people. People consult with him about legal issues all the time. He’d get in no problem.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 1:26 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
I have a chassidish family member who taught himself legalese and can read and understand legal documents better than many college educated people. People consult with him about legal issues all the time. He’d get in no problem.


You don't need to understand legalese to get into law school. They assume you'll pick it up. You do need to be able to write well.
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amother




Brunette
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:23 am
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
You don't need to understand legalese to get into law school. They assume you'll pick it up. You do need to be able to write well.


I get that. I was responding to this post. This family member would be able to answer the question below no problem in order to get into law school. And would teach himself anything necessary to get to his goal. Another result of his yeshiva education.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:
I'm really tired of hearing people say that a yeshiva student can go take a writing course and go straight to law school.
I took the LSAT. I scored in the 90+ percentile.
The Logic Games portion would be easy for a yeshiva student- it's all puzzle and diagramming, with pretty simple vocabulary.
But the rest... isn't. This is a sample question from the Logical Reasoning section:

Quote:
Executive: We recently ran a set of advertisements in the print version of a travel magazine and on that magazine’s website. We were unable to get any direct information about consumer response to the print ads. However, we found that consumer response to the ads on the website was much more limited than is typical for website ads. We concluded that consumer response to the print ads was probably below par as well.

The executive’s reasoning does which one of the following?

A) bases a prediction of the intensity of a phenomenon on information about the intensity of that phenomenon’s cause
B) uses information about the typical frequency of events of a general kind to draw a conclusion about the probability of a particular event of that kind
C) infers a statistical generalization from claims about a large number of specific instances
D) uses a case in which direct evidence is available to draw a conclusion about an analogous case in which direct evidence is unavailable
E) bases a prediction about future events on facts about recent comparable events


You need an excellent vocabulary, a deep grounding in syntax, and the ability to read English fast.
Even the logical reasoning 'rules' of Gemara don't always apply so well to the rules of secular logical reasoning.

Totally doable without preexisting knowledge in Math and Science.
Doable without years of reading complex English texts? (Not YWN. Even NYTimes won't get you far.) Good luck getting into law school.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 6:07 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
I'm really tired of hearing people say that a yeshiva student can go take a writing course and go straight to law school.
I took the LSAT. I scored in the 90+ percentile.
The Logic Games portion would be easy for a yeshiva student- it's all puzzle and diagramming, with pretty simple vocabulary.
But the rest... isn't. This is a sample question from the Logical Reasoning section:

Quote:
Executive: We recently ran a set of advertisements in the print version of a travel magazine and on that magazine’s website. We were unable to get any direct information about consumer response to the print ads. However, we found that consumer response to the ads on the website was much more limited than is typical for website ads. We concluded that consumer response to the print ads was probably below par as well.

The executive’s reasoning does which one of the following?

A) bases a prediction of the intensity of a phenomenon on information about the intensity of that phenomenon’s cause
B) uses information about the typical frequency of events of a general kind to draw a conclusion about the probability of a particular event of that kind
C) infers a statistical generalization from claims about a large number of specific instances
D) uses a case in which direct evidence is available to draw a conclusion about an analogous case in which direct evidence is unavailable
E) bases a prediction about future events on facts about recent comparable events


You need an excellent vocabulary, a deep grounding in syntax, and the ability to read English fast.
Even the logical reasoning 'rules' of Gemara don't always apply so well to the rules of secular logical reasoning.

Totally doable without preexisting knowledge in Math and Science.
Doable without years of reading complex English texts? (Not YWN. Even NYTimes won't get you far.) Good luck getting into law school.


Meh. I received no more than a high school education, and not a very good one at that, and had no trouble answering the question. Does that mean I can get into law school?
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 4:58 pm
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
My son is in yeshiva with very little secular education. I don't know exactly how much he will earn, but one thing I know for sure he will definitely earn more than my cleaning ladies son that has a better education. I see my family members with yeshiva education around me, In various professions, that they took a few month course, being very successful. In my building have non Jewish families who send their kids to public school majority have minimum wage jobs



ONCE AGAIN
stop comparing smart Jewish boys to inner city PS and tge dregs of humanity
Compare them to Upper Middle class suburban kids who more often than not are doing very well
Despite having a lower average IQ than the majority of frum kids
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post Sun, Apr 11 2021, 6:02 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
ONCE AGAIN
stop comparing smart Jewish boys to inner city PS and tge dregs of humanity
Compare them to Upper Middle class suburban kids who more often than not are doing very well
Despite having a lower average IQ than the majority of frum kids

I'm comparing average Jewish boys that come from poor families that are doing very well without too much secular education. These kids know what hard work means, they work hard in yeshiva and they learn to use their head they are ready to work hard and are way more successful than the average ps kid growing up in a poor family. I'm comparing a poor yeshiva child and a poor ps child. I know of lots of yeshiva children growing up in poor families that are very successful. With ps children that come from poor families it's extremely rare
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2021, 5:00 pm
avrahamama wrote:
"they" is the NYT. They're a newspaper but a very editorialized one. Did they look for a rebuttal letter? Do you think they will source one out? Did they look to see if this letter is reflective of the entire community?

Some posters were trying to make a distinction between successful and educated. Saying that yes there are successful people who aren't educated. My husband has clients that are millionaires and can barely spell out a check. Here's what they do have, incredible people skills, business acumen and shrewdness.

But in any case "educated" is subjective. I'm subjectively well educated having attended a top public school and a top public university. (My local public high school that is FULL of jews. Some of them even shower shabbat. Had an embarrassing SAT cheating expose just a few years ago. The actual families taking advantage of the education are fewer than they like to think they are. It's just a "free" brand name)

Anyway, educated is subjective. In the secular world I might seem well educated according to the schools I've attended and my general grasp of cultural literacy. In the frum world I'm an ignoramus who can barely make out a Rashi.


Dont feel bad

If you were born in Lakewood and went to BY your whole life you would probably know even less Rashi than you do and feel very proud of it
You could even arrogantly say " I leave the learning to the men "
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amother




Wine
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2021, 5:26 pm
Huh? Know less Rashi if u went to BY in Lakewood?
They know the MOST rashi.
Were you being sarcastic or something?
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2021, 5:40 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
Huh? Know less Rashi if u went to BY in Lakewood?
They know the MOST rashi.
Were you being sarcastic or something?


Then what happens.. Do they forget everything by the time they are 35
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amother




Ginger
 

Post Mon, Apr 12 2021, 5:55 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
ONCE AGAIN
stop comparing smart Jewish boys to inner city PS and tge dregs of humanity
Compare them to Upper Middle class suburban kids who more often than not are doing very well
Despite having a lower average IQ than the majority of frum kids


This and this again and again! Compare ourselves to the dregs when it serves us better, then jump to compare us to the higher echelons what that serves us better. Pick your partner and stick with it. Do you want to be compared to the lower elements or the higher ones?

Bottom line, we are a nation with brilliant minds, acuity and smarts. And the fact that a good many of us make despite all the obstacles placed in our paths is an attestment to it. What we need to focus on is how we are purposely limiting the potentials of so many people instead of saying, 'see the inner city people are not doing well either'!
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