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NYT Article about NYC Yeshivas not teaching basics
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amother




Red
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:46 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
How many people can be successful without any education? Of course Hashem runs the world and decides parnassah so you can be poor even with the best education or rich without an education but Talmud is one of the best ways to get an education. It doesnt just teach you to memorize anything, it teaches you to argue and ask questions and do math and whatnot. Ask the Koreans or the Japanese who are involved in studying Talmud because they want to be like the Jews-- https://www.newyorker.com/book.....korea

So as I said previously, the chasidishe bosses I worked for were successful just fine even without a college degree (which is ultimately what the otd authors want in the first place). So please specify which yeshivas you are speaking of that dont even provide any basic english or Jewish studies (minus those from KJ or New Sqver where families can opt out of english studies).


Education does not guarantee income, but it does guarantee smarts, intelligence, and gives an advantage when it comes to getting forward in life.
The recent talk during Covid and the previous election, show a serious lack of basic education, but uneducated people don't realize when their logic is flawed.

I don't understand why you keep saying minus KJ and Skver. What are we? Chopped liver?

Do you not have a son in a chassidishe Cheder? Don't you see how little they learn?

Read chapters 2&3 of the following book and ask your husband if it doesn't ring a bell.
(If he learned in a chassidishe Cheder)

https://www.amazon.com/Vetinok.....Kanye
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:54 pm
It's so funny that they're focusing on yeshivot. Schools that have actually bothered to open and provide social, emotional, spiritual and intellectual education and stimulation to their children and families.

The NYC public schools couldn't bother to figure out how to get their kids into school for the bulk of this school year. These children will be significantly "behind" in many different ways.
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amother




Orange
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:57 pm
Oholei Torah was founded for the express purpose of not learning secular studies, at the Rebbe's wish. There are other options, if that is what you must complain about to the heilige NYT.
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amother




Aquamarine
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:59 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Education does not guarantee income, but it does guarantee smarts, intelligence, and gives an advantage when it comes to getting forward in life.
The recent talk during Covid and the previous election, show a serious lack of basic education, but uneducated people don't realize when their logic is flawed.

I don't understand why you keep saying minus KJ and Skver. What are we? Chopped liver?

Do you not have a son in a chassidishe Cheder? Don't you see how little they learn?

Read chapters 3&4 of the following book and ask your husband if it doesn't ring a bell.
(If he learned in a chassidishe Cheder)

Most chasidishe boys schools in BP and WB do give the kids a secular education. I say this as my own brothers graduated from these school (all 10 of them from various chasidishe yeshivas with some of them running their own businesses without any further assistance or college education). I say this as someone who worked for various chasidish male bosses who ran their own businesses, communicated in English, wrote reports in perfect english, did math really well, etc. Stop trying to knock them or their education. And yes, the men from KJ and New Sqver who worked with us struggled with english so perhaps you are referring to those communities when you say they dont get a proper education (although I believe that the yeshivas do offer it but families can choose to opt out). But they do learn Talmud and that helps them more than any memorized history information. That is the reason why chabad men say that college is easier than Yeshiva, because Talmud is hard. It is also known that many men become lawyers because they studied Talmud so that helps them tremendously in law school. And law school is hard to get into or to stay (many students fail out or lose their scholarships) so there is no way for anyone to say that men dont get an education.
I'll repost the article about Koreans studying Talmud because they want to be as educated and successful as the Jews. Do you think they are wrong about it given your own opinions about how chasidishe men arent educated in Jewish or secular studies?

https://www.newyorker.com/book.....korea
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amother




Red
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:04 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Most chasidishe boys schools in BP and WB do give the kids a secular education. I say this as my own brothers graduated from these school (all 10 of them from various chasidishe yeshivas with some of them running their own businesses without any further assistance or college education). I say this as someone who worked for various chasidish male bosses who ran their own businesses, communicated in English, wrote reports in perfect english, did math really well, etc. Stop trying to knock them or their education. And yes, the men from KJ and New Sqver who worked with us struggled with english so perhaps you are referring to those communities when you say they dont get a proper education (although I believe that the yeshivas do offer it but families can choose to opt out). But they do learn Talmud and that helps them more than any memorized history information. That is the reason why chabad men say that college is easier than Yeshiva, because Talmud is hard. It is also known that many men become lawyers because they studied Talmud so that helps them tremendously in law school. And law school is hard to get into or to stay (many students fail out or lose their scholarships) so there is no way for anyone to say that men dont get an education.
I'll repost the article about Koreans studying Talmud because they want to be as educated and successful as the Jews. Do you think they are wrong about it given your own opinions about how chasidishe men arent educated in Jewish or secular studies?

https://www.newyorker.com/book.....korea


My brothers learned in the city and their education was POOR.
Once again. Successful and educated are 2 different things. Not sure why I need to keep repeating that. And no, KJ and and Skver do not give a decent education, even if the boys stick with the program.

I don't know why you feel the need to cover it up.
I have had my share of Satmar bosses too.
We obviously run in the same circles.
Or maybe not, because you can't seem to tell me which Cheder you sent to that had a decent education.

If Koreans are studying Talmud it is because they value education.
Don't you get the irony?
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amother




Smokey
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:04 pm
avrahamama wrote:
It's so funny that they're focusing on yeshivot. Schools that have actually bothered to open and provide social, emotional, spiritual and intellectual education and stimulation to their children and families.

The NYC public schools couldn't bother to figure out how to get their kids into school for the bulk of this school year. These children will be significantly "behind" in many different ways.


Who is "they"? This article is written by two people with personal involvement with the Yeshiva system, not the NYT editorial board.

The Times has had plenty of articles in the past year re: parent, student, and teacher challenges with public schools and in-person learning.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/0......html
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/0......html
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/0......html

These are all just from the past few weeks.
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amother




Ginger
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:14 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Most chasidishe boys schools in BP and WB do give the kids a secular education. I say this as my own brothers graduated from these school (all 10 of them from various chasidishe yeshivas with some of them running their own businesses without any further assistance or college education). I say this as someone who worked for various chasidish male bosses who ran their own businesses, communicated in English, wrote reports in perfect english, did math really well, etc. Stop trying to knock them or their education. And yes, the men from KJ and New Sqver who worked with us struggled with english so perhaps you are referring to those communities when you say they dont get a proper education (although I believe that the yeshivas do offer it but families can choose to opt out). But they do learn Talmud and that helps them more than any memorized history information. That is the reason why chabad men say that college is easier than Yeshiva, because Talmud is hard. It is also known that many men become lawyers because they studied Talmud so that helps them tremendously in law school. And law school is hard to get into or to stay (many students fail out or lose their scholarships) so there is no way for anyone to say that men dont get an education.
I'll repost the article about Koreans studying Talmud because they want to be as educated and successful as the Jews. Do you think they are wrong about it given your own opinions about how chasidishe men arent educated in Jewish or secular studies?

https://www.newyorker.com/book.....korea


Where to begin - your post jumps back and forth between all kinds of groups with no cohesiveness.

In short.

I don't know about BP, but most in WB do NOT give the kids a decent secular education. I don't think you'll find anyone to contradict that. If the bosses you are talking about wrote reports in perfect English and did math really well, then they're not hailing from the communities in question here. Talmud sharpens the mind, but does not give parnossoh skills. And for every successful person, there are at least 20 who are struggling or just about perhaps scraping together to make ends meet (according to the askonim in their communities) Chassidishe lawyers are almost non-existent - not because they don't have the capabilities, but because they don't have the English skills for it. The men applying for law schools are not coming from the yeshivas that don't give proper secular education. Other people wanting to study Talmud has nothing to do with wanting to be as successful as Jews. They're learning it to expand their mind and intellect, and not for any parnossoh or success purposes.
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amother




Ginger
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:29 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Perhaps you should specify which yeshiva you speak of since many of the chasidishe men (Satmar, bobov) I have worked are educated enough to run their own businesses successfully. And the chabad guys speak English at home so they certainly dont struggle with that and have even said that college is easier than yeshiva. So please specify which yeshiva you are referring to when you say that they dont get Jewish knowledge or basic knowledge like reading, writing, spelling, etc


I'm so tired of this repeated false argument. For every successful guy, there are so many more unsuccessful ones. We tend to focus on those and forget about all those struggling behind the scenes. I come from a huge family. The ones doing well are less than 10%. The majority are struggling, and a few are permanent fixtures on the tzedakah rolls. - and that is with all the public assistance they're eligible for. But when this discussion comes up, everyone tends to focus on the few that are doing fantastic as if they create the formula for the entire family. Everyone else is just overlooked.

In any given community, it's normal to have a wealthy minority, a poor minority, with the majority in the wide range of the middle class. In my community, there is a wealthy minority, but a poor majority. That alone speaks for itself and counters all these anecdotal stories that attempt to propagate false information.
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amother




Royalblue
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:31 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
How insulting. We don't all know that. I've met plenty of public school graduates with lovely middos and plenty of frum Jews with terrible middos.

The public school bashing on this forum is really absurd. It doesn't have to be the best choice for you to still be a great choice for other people. And people who can't defend their own choices without insulting other peoples' choices need to work on their insecurities.


I'm sorry but are you actually defending the decision to send to public school? Please find me one mainstream Rov that supports this idea. There have been stories of families in dire poverty, with practically no income, that still send to Yiddishe schools. The community helps (generally) if the family is unable to. Sending to public school is an extremely serious topic that is not to be taken lightly. A frum child in public school is pretty much totally contradicts frumkeit.

I'm at a bit of a loss here.
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amother




Red
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:34 pm
amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:
I'm sorry but are you actually defending the decision to send to public school? Please find me one mainstream Rov that supports this idea. There have been stories of families in dire poverty, with practically no income, that still send to Yiddishe schools. The community helps (generally) if the family is unable to. Sending to public school is an extremely serious topic that is not to be taken lightly. A frum child in public school is pretty much totally contradicts frumkeit.

I'm at a bit of a loss here.


You do realize that not sending to public school is a rather new phenomenon.
All our grandparents went to Public School.

Her point isn't about defending it, her point is about putting down another system to make yours look better.
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amother




Ginger
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:37 pm
amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:
I'm sorry but are you actually defending the decision to send to public school? Please find me one mainstream Rov that supports this idea. There have been stories of families in dire poverty, with practically no income, that still send to Yiddishe schools. The community helps (generally) if the family is unable to. Sending to public school is an extremely serious topic that is not to be taken lightly. A frum child in public school is pretty much totally contradicts frumkeit.

I'm at a bit of a loss here.


Where is she saying that? All that she is saying that the information you presented about public schools is false. She countered the claim that all public school graduates possess poor middos. For those trying to denigrate other to bolster our own poor showing, she called them out on it. That doesn't mean she was suggesting we send to public schools.
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amother




Aquamarine
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:40 pm
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
Where to begin - your post jumps back and forth between all kinds of groups with no cohesiveness.

In short.

I don't know about BP, but most in WB do NOT give the kids a decent secular education. I don't think you'll find anyone to contradict that. If the bosses you are talking about wrote reports in perfect English and did math really well, then they're not hailing from the communities in question here. Talmud sharpens the mind, but does not give parnossoh skills. And for every successful person, there are at least 20 who are struggling or just about perhaps scraping together to make ends meet (according to the askonim in their communities) Chassidishe lawyers are almost non-existent - not because they don't have the capabilities, but because they don't have the English skills for it. The men applying for law schools are not coming from the yeshivas that don't give proper secular education. Other people wanting to study Talmud has nothing to do with wanting to be as successful as Jews. They're learning it to expand their mind and intellect, and not for any parnossoh or success purposes.

This will be my last post as I keep getting attacked on this thread. I am talking about satmar, bobov, munkatch, spink, and other chasidishe yeshivas in bp and wb where the men graduated from and are very capable and educated. Many people in these communities also work off the book to get government benefits so saying that the majority is poor while only a few are wealthy is not valid. Chasidishe men who want to get their law degrees can do so without any trouble, its not common in the community to do that so they dont. That has nothing to do with their education. It has to do with standards, the standard is to run businesses and that is what many men do. Not everyone will run a business, not everyone who runs a business will be successful and I hate to break this to you but not everyone who goes to college graduate. Many flunk out and/or quit. So for every 4.0 gpa in college you will get 20 1.0 failures. Which is a system you are describing as people are not equal and not everyone will be successful regardless of educational background.
And I bolded the point I was trying to make, studying the Talmud gives you intellect that memorized history will not give you. You can read what you say again and then ask yourself why you claim that chasidishe boys who study Talmud (even more than Koreans) are not highly educated if studying Talmud is intellectual (and yes, it can be used for business and everything else as it does teach business ethics, math, etc which is what you would learn in college and is the reason why chabad men say they have an easier time in college than in yeshiva). Read the bolded again before you respond as you already agreed that chasidishe men get a very high education.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:51 pm
If the parents care about secular education, they provide their children with plenty of
english reading material, including science and history, and tutor them in math.

Many do this.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:52 pm
Plenty of public school graduates are illiterate and innumerate (no math skills).
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amother




Ginger
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:56 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
This will be my last post as I keep getting attacked on this thread. I am talking about satmar, bobov, munkatch, spink, and other chasidishe yeshivas in bp and wb where the men graduated from and are very capable and educated. Many people in these communities also work off the book to get government benefits so saying that the majority is poor while only a few are wealthy is not valid. Chasidishe men who want to get their law degrees can do so without any trouble, its not common in the community to do that so they dont. That has nothing to do with their education. It has to do with standards, the standard is to run businesses and that is what many men do. Not everyone will run a business, not everyone who runs a business will be successful and I hate to break this to you but not everyone who goes to college graduate. Many flunk out and/or quit. So for every 4.0 gpa in college you will get 20 1.0 failures. Which is a system you are describing as people are not equal and not everyone will be successful regardless of educational background.
And I bolded the point I was trying to make, studying the Talmud gives you intellect that memorized history will not give you. You can read what you say again and then ask yourself why you claim that chasidishe boys who study Talmud (even more than Koreans) are not highly educated if studying Talmud is intellectual (and yes, it can be used for business and everything else as it does teach business ethics, math, etc which is what you would learn in college and is the reason why chabad men say they have an easier time in college than in yeshiva). Read the bolded again before you respond as you already agreed that chasidishe men get a very high education.


Sorry, but this is such a gross misrepresentation. My family is very heavily satmar and viznitz. And the men are very far from capable and educated. Satmar hardly gives an education. They give 1 to 1.5 hours per day until bar mitzvah age. Many speak a heavily accented, poorly constructed English. And Chassidishe men who want their law degrees, jump through so many hoops to be on level to even join college to begin with. They need all kinds of support and tutoring to even get to the starting level. The majority don't even attempt to do it, as it would take years to catch up. It has everything to do with education.

Their standard to run businesses is because that is their one route to success. They can't have careers because of the lack of education. So anyone who can't run a successful business is left scrambling - and that is a healthy number.

And do you realize the format of your argument. You focus on the few successes in the communities, but then you counter that with the few failures in the secular world. That's a misleading argument. There will always be successes in places that run counter to the rules, and there will always be failures that do the same. That doesn't mean that either one is the route to take or avoid. There is a natural order of the world that Hashem created, and that is the man should acquire life skills. The Torah even goes so far to command us to teach our boys a skill for parnossoh.

And again you misinterpret my words. Where have I said that chassidishe boys are not highly educated. What I have said is that they're not educated in the secular sense. They're not educated in the way that they can support the large families they're encouraged to have, nor are they educated in a way that they can function in the 20th century working world. Intellect will not provide parnossoh, or bring food to the table. The Talmud itself does not provide the English reading, English writing, math and computer skills that one needs to navigate the world today. Pretending that it will be enough to prop up a man in the working world is just wrong.
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amother




Beige
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 10:59 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
You do realize that not sending to public school is a rather new phenomenon.
All our grandparents went to Public School.

Her point isn't about defending it, her point is about putting down another system to make yours look better.


Remember how few of them stayed frum?
My grandfather and his 5 brothers in Brownsville were raised in a frum home, went to public school and none stayed frum. They were the norm in the neighborhood. My grandfather remembers one family on his block had 2 boys that stayed frum through public school and into adulthood and everyone talked about them.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:06 pm
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
Remember how few of them stayed frum?
My grandfather and his 5 brothers in Brownsville were raised in a frum home, went to public school and none stayed frum. They were the norm in the neighborhood. My grandfather remembers one family on his block had 2 boys that stayed frum through public school and into adulthood and everyone talked about them.


And that is when public schools had standards of morality.

The TOEVA (LGBQT) and atheism that is being taught today....! (shudder)
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:19 pm
I live in bp my son goes to a chassidishe cheder. If you all are not happy with the English education why don’t u teach ur sons urself? Ever heard of reading them bedtime stories? you can’t expect to send ur kids to chassidhe chederim and expect them to pick up English without any support at home. Though, the cheder I send to, I’m very happy with their English program and I supplement at home. My son started reading thick chapter English books at the age of 6 on his own. We’ve always seen education to be important and you shd not be relying completely on the school alone. I do agree though that satmar and some other places should change things around-I mean I’ve never heard of not being able to differentiate Hebrew letters unless the student has a learning disability... that is sad. It is up to the family if English is important or not and what kind of lifestyle they want to lead, limudei kodesh shd not be subpar too though...
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amother




Red
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:24 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
I live in bp my son goes to a chassidishe cheder. If you all are not happy with the English education why don’t u teach ur sons urself? Ever heard of reading them bedtime stories? you can’t expect to send ur kids to chassidhe chederim and expect them to pick up English without any support at home. Though, the cheder I send to, I’m very happy with their English program and I supplement at home. My son started reading thick chapter English books at the age of 6 on his own. We’ve always seen education to be important and you shd not be relying completely on the school alone. I do agree though that satmar and some other places should change things around-I mean I’ve never heard of not being able to differentiate Hebrew letters unless the student has a learning disability... that is sad. It is up to the family if English is important or not and what kind of lifestyle they want to lead, limudei kodesh shd not be subpar too though...


My girls and boys live in the same home.
Why do I need to pick up the slack from the chedarim for my boys?
Somehow the schools manage to fit it all in the schedule just fine.
The chedarim can be expected to up their game.
The Montreal boys had to add secular studies to their curriculum and managed to fit in the Limudei Kodesh.
If we demand it they will cater to it.
Its pure laziness.
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amother




Red
 

Post Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:27 pm
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
Remember how few of them stayed frum?
My grandfather and his 5 brothers in Brownsville were raised in a frum home, went to public school and none stayed frum. They were the norm in the neighborhood. My grandfather remembers one family on his block had 2 boys that stayed frum through public school and into adulthood and everyone talked about them.


In America almost no one stayed frum.

Back in Europe there was no Jewish full time schooling. Not learning secular studies is a new thing.
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