NYT Article about NYC Yeshivas not teaching basics

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:29 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

This will be my last post as I keep getting attacked on this thread. I am talking about satmar, bobov, munkatch, spink, and other chasidishe yeshivas in bp and wb where the men graduated from and are very capable and educated. Many people in these communities also work off the book to get government benefits so saying that the majority is poor while only a few are wealthy is not valid. Chasidishe men who want to get their law degrees can do so without any trouble, its not common in the community to do that so they dont. That has nothing to do with their education. It has to do with standards, the standard is to run businesses and that is what many men do. Not everyone will run a business, not everyone who runs a business will be successful and I hate to break this to you but not everyone who goes to college graduate. Many flunk out and/or quit. So for every 4.0 gpa in college you will get 20 1.0 failures. Which is a system you are describing as people are not equal and not everyone will be successful regardless of educational background.
And I bolded the point I was trying to make, studying the Talmud gives you intellect that memorized history will not give you. You can read what you say again and then ask yourself why you claim that chasidishe boys who study Talmud (even more than Koreans) are not highly educated if studying Talmud is intellectual (and yes, it can be used for business and everything else as it does teach business ethics, math, etc which is what you would learn in college and is the reason why chabad men say they have an easier time in college than in yeshiva). Read the bolded again before you respond as you already agreed that chasidishe men get a very high education.

Satmar and Spink in Williamsburg do not have a basic education. The boys graduate maximum on a 3rd-4th grade level.
Maybe Vien is a bit better.

#BestBubby

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:29 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

In America almost no one stayed frum.

Back in Europe there was no Jewish full time schooling. Not learning secular studies is a new thing.

Many in Europe had long hours of cheder with no secular education taught in cheder, at all.

They were not taught to speak the language, let alone read or write in a secular language.

The wealthier had private secular lessons at home.

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:32 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

The average child in Hungary went to Public School until the 8th grade.
The boys had Cheder in the afternoon.
The girls and boys were together in one class.

I will verify if this was any different in Poland and Galicia.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:35 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

That was because the men generally needed manual skills to bring in a parnossoh. The world has changed so much today, that most men don't do manual work anymore.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:37 pm

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

I live in bp my son goes to a chassidishe cheder. If you all are not happy with the English education why don’t u teach ur sons urself? Ever heard of reading them bedtime stories? you can’t expect to send ur kids to chassidhe chederim and expect them to pick up English without any support at home. Though, the cheder I send to, I’m very happy with their English program and I supplement at home. My son started reading thick chapter English books at the age of 6 on his own. We’ve always seen education to be important and you shd not be relying completely on the school alone. I do agree though that satmar and some other places should change things around-I mean I’ve never heard of not being able to differentiate Hebrew letters unless the student has a learning disability... that is sad. It is up to the family if English is important or not and what kind of lifestyle they want to lead, limudei kodesh shd not be subpar too though...

Because I'm too busy working full time to make up for the lack of my dh's ability to bring in a decent parnossoh. And when I'm home, I'm taking care of my large family that I was encouraged to have (BH, I love them all).

amother

Chartreuse

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:38 pm

I have 2 family members who graduated from Belz and one is a lawyer, the other is currently in law school.
Another family member is becoming a nurse and another a paramedic.
All from chassidishe schools.
While there is definitely room for improvement, this constant throwing our system under the bus, is horrible. These formerly chassidish people are just disgruntled and seem to have a lot of spare time on their hands.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:39 pm

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

Not formerly chassidish here and still very disgruntled. And to repeat again, the success of a few speaks little of the status quo of many.

And can you specify if these graduates are male or female? We aren't discussing the female gender here. We don't shortchange them as we do with the males.

amother

Babypink

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:43 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

And the second those cheder boys had the opportunity to leave religious life, the vast majority did. The system was a religious failure.

Education correlates with income. People can choose poverty for themselves, but it's unfair to condemn a child to a life of poverty because you won't give him the basics he needs to function in the world.

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:49 pm

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

I don't know if you are referring to women or men, but in any case, there will always be the few that will succeed despite their system, not because of it.

The Vast majority of chassidishe men I am around do not have what it takes to get to these places.

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:50 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Ok, I take back what I said earlier and will post again because you bring up the girls. Satmar girls do not learn chumash, rashi or talmud nor do they graduate with an accredited high school diploma. So the satmar boys are more advanced and if they want they can get a btl and go directly to law school which the girls dont have the privilege of getting and have to start from the bottom (ged) if they do want to get to law school.
I think its bizarre that people point to Ruchy Frieir as a successful chasidishe lawyer/judge when she was a Bais Yakov graduate and had the education and opportunities not available to satmar women. Although she may be more comparable to girls who graduate Tomer Devorah which is chasidish but with a high education.
So not all schools are equal and not all girls get a good education just like not all boys get a bad one.
And as I previously said, I have many male family members who graduated from satmar (wb and bp) who are highly successful and running their own businesses (including computer programming, mortgages, and other businesses that some people go to college simply to learn what they are already doing). But I will let them know that imamother and some otd people decided they are not educated enough and should immediately give up their businesses and go to college Rolling Eyes

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:53 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

They can have a successful business and be majorly uneducated.
They have great secretaries doing the bulk work for them.

amother

Scarlet

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:57 pm

In Montreal, Satmar took the Ministry of Education to court. In the end they reached an agreement that allows children who attend unaccredited schools to be homeschooled in general studies.
The Ministry created a department and passed a new bill to address homeschooling in Quebec.
The children in Tosh, Satmar, Viznitz, Yam HaTalmud and Skver Boys' are directly supervised by the English Montreal School Board. Lubavitch resisted until this school year. They have now also registered their children. Parents are required to submit extensive paperwork and portfolios twice yearly. Parents and children must also have an annual face-to-face meeting with their educational supervisor. The schools operate learning centers that provide instruction, resources and support to parents. My son is at grade level in English, Math, Geography, History and Science. His French is weaker but he's progressing nicely b''h. All of this is accomplished in 8-10 hours of secular studies/week.

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:57 pm

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

I live in bp my son goes to a chassidishe cheder. If
I do agree though that satmar and some other places should change things around-I mean I’ve never heard of not being able to differentiate Hebrew letters unless the student has a learning disability... that is sad.

I know people from BP are especially bad with Yiddish Grammar, so you'll actually see this even more often over there.
Think און and אין
צו/צי
ברידער/ ברודער

Other examples common in BP are ע/י
ברענגען- ברענגין
Etc.

My husband starting writing a weekly column and I literally had to teach him when to put commas, periods, what an exclamation point means, and when and how many dots you put(...) He would make 2 or 4. (../....)
And this is already a professional writer that was hired for a job.

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:58 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

They can have a successful business and be majorly uneducated.
They have great secretaries doing the bulk work for them.

What are you talking about? Some of them have no secretaries while others are writing the bulk of the paper they need to write. And they communicate with the banks, clients and other vendors in plain english. And all this from their satmar and other chasidishe yeshiva education.
I suppose there are boys who have learning disabilities that goes undetected so they struggle more than other boys. How many boys are tested for learning disabilities and given the appropriate therapies to help them succeed if they do struggle? That is more what should be focused on since there is the real reason why they might not succeed later in life.

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 11:59 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

I know people from BP are especially bad with Yiddish Grammar, so you'll actually see this even more often over there.
Think און and אין
צו/צי
ברידער/ ברודער
Etc.
My husband starting writing a weekly column and I literally had to teach him when to put commas, periods, what an exclamation point means, and when and how many dots you put(...) He would make 2 or 4. (../....)
And this is already a professional writer that was hired for a job.

Professional writers, even the ones with advanced degrees, all have editors doing this for them so that has nothing to do with the education he got in yeshiva.

amother

Red

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:00 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I started working for one of those guys that didn't have a secretary.
Guess what? He had a wife.

amother

Red

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:02 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

Professional writers, even the ones with advanced degrees, all have editors doing this for them so that has nothing to do with the education he got in yeshiva.

They absolutely expect their writers to have basic grammar, or they wouldn't be able to understand the writing to begin with.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:02 am

amother [ Red ] wrote:

I started working for one of those guys that didn't have a secretary.
Guess what? He had a wife.

Not all have wives. Or secretaries. And they are still very successful. Why is that so hard to believe?

amother

Ginger

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:03 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

Seriously? The boys are more advanced than the girls???? With an education that maxes out the 4/5th grade level, they cannot get into a law school even if they try really really hard. They can barely get into a community college without extensive remedial help and many months (or years) of tutoring. The girls on the other hand, don't have the diploma, but are mostly prepared for the GED. They can catch up on the missing work within weeks, and sail ahead.

amother

Red

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:04 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

Not all have wives. Or secretaries. And they are still very successful. Why is that so hard to believe?

Because I have worked for 5 Chassidishe bosses and this has not been my experience.

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