NYT Article about NYC Yeshivas not teaching basics

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:10 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Seriously? The boys are more advanced than the girls???? With an education that maxes out the 4/5th grade level, they cannot get into a law school even if they try really really hard. They can barely get into a community college without extensive remedial help and many months (or years) of tutoring. The girls on the other hand, don't have the diploma, but are mostly prepared for the GED. They can catch up on the missing work within weeks, and sail ahead.

If you factor in Chumash, Rashi and Talmud then yes the boys get a better education and qualify for a btl which is a bachelors degree btw that enables them to go directly to graduate school or law school. The girls get an 8 grade level at best and are do not graduate with a degree so they have to play catch up. Many girls have said they struggled and didnt bother going to college or dropped out of college because of it so yes, its a hindrance but glad you dont struggle.
BTW, this applies to satmar girls. Girls in other schools like Bobov, Vien, Pupa, etc do learn chumash and do graduate high school with a regents diploma so its not comparable.
I am fully ok with implementing regents in all girls and boys schools but not sure how much longer NY will continue to require it as they seem to want to get rid of all standarized tests so not sure what the measurements or standards will be like once they eliminate regents.

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:12 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

Because I have worked for 5 Chassidishe bosses and this has not been my experience.

You worked for chasidishe bosses? How come they had the business but not you considering your claim that girls are more educated? Why didnt you work for chasidishe female bosses or have your own business for that matter?

#BestBubby

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:18 pm

[political comment removed -mod]

DrMom

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:20 pm

I understand the author of this editorial is forced to send her child to this school according to the terms of her divorce agreement.

But what about the rest of you?

These are private schools. It seems like you should be able to pressure the schools to improve their curriculum if you vote with your feet.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:20 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I'm sorry, but you don't really seem to be familiar with the satmar education. The girls are more educated than an 8th grade level, and the boys, no matter their level of jewish education, have no teeth to even know how to apply to college, let alone even take the entrance exam. Let alone even have the skill to do the most basic algebra or write a coherent essay.

The boys can hardly tackle regular college without extensive catching up (years). No one is going directly to graduate school or law school, with no reading, writing skills and 5th grade math skills .

Implementing regents in boys schools? How would that happen when their secular education is cut off at the 5th grade level. Would the yeshivas do what they did in my days? Give the exams to the girls to take, and make sure they don't write their names, so they can fill in the boys' names instead?

To be honest, you seem to be delusional about what goes on in the satmar schools.

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:21 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

Maybe they also had 5 jobs before opening their own business?
What makes you think I don't have my own business at this point?
After doing Payroll, Bookkeeping and Estimating, I am currently self employed thanks to my Math education, while my old bosses had to find a new girl, as they couldn't do these calculations by themselves.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:21 pm

DrMom wrote:

You lose your community and lifestyle (and sometimes your family/friends too) if you vote with your feet. It's a tough choice.

amother

Bisque

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:23 pm

My children are all in Satmar, and I am a graduate as well. The girls do get a decent secular education, even though we have no formal diploma to show for it at the end. College was completely doable for someone who put in the work in elementary and high school.

We do leave school completely ignorant of Jewish foundational texts, having never opened a chumash or other sefer in the original lashon hakodesh. What we do learn is carefully selected to fit specific hashkafic and chinuch goals.

As an adult, I am working hard to rectify this through a self-designed learning program. There are so many resources available nowadays! Nevertheless, it's an uphill battle to learn the core basics of my own heritage at my age.

Filling in educational gaps as an adult is an incredible challenge that most people are not up for once they have the responsibilities of adulthood, marriage, children, work, etc. The system is designed to make it difficult.

Which brings me to the boys' secular education... I know we like to say that those who really want to can make up for it later, but that is incredibly difficult. It also doesn't excuse the irresponsible waste of time that is their current "program."

None of my sons have gotten past basic addition, subtraction, and multiplication. I have never seen a worksheet on any subject. I don't know what books they use or what subjects they learn.

Recently, there has been a major (internal) push towards improving the quality of that short hour per day, probably in response to the scrutiny and "airing of dirty laundry" that is so decried on this forum, but it's all still rather vague and incompetent.

My son says they have a book called "People and Places" or something like that, but he isn't sure what it's about. History? Geography? Earth science and biology? Some sort of combination? He doesn't know and neither does the teacher.

And oy, the teachers.

My youngest son corrects his teacher's pronunciation (respectfully, I hope?) and is often asked to read and explain worksheet instructions to his classmates because they don't understand what they need to do. Another son described his teacher's textbook: "on top of every line he had written in yiddish how to pronounce it."

This year - for the very first time - they began to learn basic spelling and vocabulary, but they have never been asked to write anything. At all. Not even in Yiddish. Unless I could count copying divrei torah by hand? They don't learn to paraphrase, summarize, or even take notes.

Twice a year they are graded on their handwriting skills. There is nothing else on the report card, even though they take frequent multiple choice tests on chumash and oral tests on gemarah. I have no idea what subjects they learn other than those two, because there seems to be no system and no accountability. Each rebbe adds on his personal interests - whether it's stories from nach or a specific area of halachah. Ironically, the handwriting report has a long excerpt from a sefer about the value of teaching children to write - and yet, somehow, I don't think the mechaber of the sefer meant literally only handwriting.

I am heartsick over this situation, but there is no alternative available for my children, and no, I'm not starting a school myself. At the end of the day, I remind myself that education is more than skills and grades. It is chinuch towards a way of life that I love and want them to value, as well.

I supplement with workbooks, educational games, books, and even science experiments and activities. My sons emerged from lockdown last year with more education than they had accumulated in their entire school career.

As humiliating as it is, I secretly rejoice when our "dirty laundry" is aired. Maybe this will force another incremental change in the status quo. I cannot do that myself. I love where I live, my standing in the community, and my family. I can't change things on my own, and it's too complicated to fight for change. Fighting for change is automatically equated with being self-hating or out-of-the-box or heading OTD or whatever.

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:24 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

You lose your community and lifestyle (and sometimes your family/friends too) if you vote with your feet. It's a tough choice.

Voting in the election is a better choice.
Instead of voting for the ones the yeshivas want, that promise them they won't have to change anything, vote for the ones that will implement change.

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:25 pm

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Thats cute. I am a satmar graduate so I guess you are the one who doesnt know what goes on there or how much of a struggle it is for a girl to go to college or how much easier the men have it when they go to college (I know several who got accepted to law school with scholarships, do you have any idea how difficult that is to achieve even for secular people?). I guess this conversation really is futile as you insist that you know better than a satmar girl herself because you worked for chasidishe men or something. Whatever.

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:28 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

You are answering the wrong person and confusing 2 different people's experiences.

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:29 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

They couldnt or dont want to? Trust me secular bosses dont do their own books either so not sure why you would expect bosses, even chasidishe bosses, to do their own work (although many do in my experience).

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:30 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

You are answering the wrong person and confusing 2 different people's experiences.

That was in response to someone telling me I dont know about Satmar when I am in fact a satmar graduate. How is that confusing?

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:31 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

That was in response to someone telling me I dont know about Satmar when I am in fact a satmar graduate. How is that confusing?

She wasn't the one working for other bosses. I was.

amother

Bisque

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:33 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I'm going to respectfully disagree. I don't know about men getting into law school and how they did that, though I know there is a thriving industry of women and girls writing essays for male college students.

I do know that we learned to write - including essays - as well as read decent literature, and learned math, science, and social sciences on a level that definitely prepared me for college. The problem was not content but attitude. Many students didn't bother to put in the work because they weren't working towards anything, and weren't taught to value education for its own sake. After all, making kugel and chulent does not require solving binomial equations.

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:33 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

She wasn't the one working for other bosses. I was.

Whatever. This conversation is going in circles and we will never agree about this so I will just go to sleep since its late anyway. Good night.

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:34 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

You keep changing your argument.
One minute they don't have Secretaries because they learned Gemara, the next minute they do because Non Jewish bosses also have them.
You needs facts and numbers to prove a point.
Knowing one guy who did this or that doesn't prove that the system works for the rest of the people, or that it was easy for them to reach that place.

amother

Emerald

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:34 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

The average child in Hungary went to Public School until the 8th grade.
The boys had Cheder in the afternoon.
The girls and boys were together in one class.

I will verify if this was any different in Poland and Galicia.

My grandparents were from Galicia. The boys had Yeshiva and the girls went to public school. I think this is pretty well known and documented.

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:35 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

I had to read one book and write one essay throughout my entire high school career. And math was a joke at 8th grade level. It did NOT prepare me for college. Dont delude yourself into thinking that a low level satmar girls school education is similar to a college prep school because its not. But glad you didnt struggle with your college. Where did you go btw?

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Apr 07 2021, 9:38 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

I am not changing my argument. I am saying some do and some dont. Life isnt black and white. But feel free to bring facts and numbers to prove your point that chasidishe men are not successful at business or whatever point you are trying to make.