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S\o amazing jobs chassidish men do without education
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ChassidishMommy




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:13 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Please learn reading comprehension, topic sentences, and how to summarize a paragraph properly.

FF, we know what you didn't say, and I actually don't think anyone said that you said any of those. But could you at least acknowledge what you did say?
I quote: Not to mention the cultural barrier, that most Chassidish men would rather die than take a job where their hands get dirty. It would ruin their shidduch prospects, and the whole family would be ashamed.
And could you please acknowledge that what you stated as fact is simply not true? That you spoke out of ignorance or misinformation?
I would venture to say that out of all large sectors of Jews, secular included, Chassidish men are probably the most likely to get their hands dirty at their job. (No, I did not state this as a fact, but a strong likelihood.)
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:22 pm
Blessing1 wrote:
What type of secular education do yeshivish boys get besides for reading and writing English? Do all yeshivish schools, especially the RW schools like in Lakewood & Monsey, get a good secular education in Math, science, computers?


Really depends on the school.

On another note.

I think people overrate school education. Any motivated person can catch up fairly quickly.

I for one am amazed at how successful the chadsidesh community is on a whole.
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Simple1




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:26 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:


I base most of my information on what Chassidish posters here say about their own husband's lack of education, lack of ambition, and how lousy their kid's schools are.


This might be the problem. You sort of have to live in the NY area to get a feel for what people are talking about on this thread. I don't think imamother is a fully accurate portrayal of the real world.
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sky




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 4:08 pm
Blessing1 wrote:
What type of secular education do yeshivish boys get besides for reading and writing English? Do all yeshivish schools, especially the RW schools like in Lakewood & Monsey, get a good secular education in Math, science, computers?


There is almost no English high school education in boys Lakewood schools. (And my son is in a school that has some English and it’s still true)
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sfisch




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:17 am
So whenever this topic comes up, there are always people saying that the successful chassidim are the outliers, the ones who succeeded despite their lack of education, and that most chassidish men suffer from the lack of education and are not successful.

But the truth is that a large percent of people who are very educated are also not successful.

Which makes me curious. I’d wish to have some real data. I’d love to compare the percentage of successful chassidim (vs unsuccessful chassidim) to the percentage of successful college educated people (vs unsuccessful.)
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:26 am
sfisch wrote:
So whenever this topic comes up, there are always people saying that the successful chassidim are the outliers, the ones who succeeded despite their lack of education, and that most chassidish men suffer from the lack of education and are not successful.

But the truth is that a large percent of people who are very educated are also not successful.

Which makes me curious. I’d wish to have some real data. I’d love to compare the percentage of successful chassidim (vs unsuccessful chassidim) to the percentage of successful college educated people (vs unsuccessful.)


There are a significant number of educated people who are not successful, but they're not the majority. But the number of chassidim who are struggling and/or relying on outside help for their daily necessities is in the majority.

And the problem with acquiring such data is that few people will come forth to announce that they are unsuccessful. It's not something they're proud of and they hide that from everyone. There is also a significant number who are not making it, but put up a front to others to protect their dignity. That's another reason why people assume that the number of chassidim who are successful is much higher than it actually is.
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sfisch




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:29 am
jkl wrote:
There are a significant number of educated people who are not successful, but they're not the majority. But the number of chassidim who are struggling and/or relying on outside help for their daily necessities is in the majority.

And the problem with acquiring such data is that few people will come forth to announce that they are unsuccessful. It's not something they're proud of and they hide that from everyone. There is also a significant number who are not making it, but put up a front to others to protect their dignity. That's another reason why people assume that the number of chassidim who are successful is much higher than it actually is.


Interesting! I hear your opinion.
I still would love some better data.
There are so many factors. For example, chassidish men enter the workforce expecting to work hard in order to succeed, whereas I would imagine people who graduate with degrees expect to have an easier time making it.
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sky




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:33 am
jkl wrote:
There are a significant number of educated people who are not successful, but they're not the majority. But the number of chassidim who are struggling and/or relying on outside help for their daily necessities is in the majority.

And the problem with acquiring such data is that few people will come forth to announce that they are unsuccessful. It's not something they're proud of and they hide that from everyone. There is also a significant number who are not making it, but put up a front to others to protect their dignity. That's another reason why people assume that the number of chassidim who are successful is much higher than it actually is.

I have a hard time believing the majority of college educated people are successful.
If this true why is there such a huge movement to forgive college loans. If everyone is so successful why can’t they pay it back.
The news is full of stories of college graduates living in their parents home, can’t find a job, blaming the economy.
And then there is the struggle of middle age employees where ppl who work for others start being pushed out as they get older and then have a hard time finding a job with their 20 years at one company. Especially in technology fields. (I see this a lot and it scares me).
Are they the minority of society?
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:52 am
sky wrote:
I have a hard time believing the majority of college educated people are successful.
If this true why is there such a huge movement to forgive college loans. If everyone is so successful why can’t they pay it back.
The news is full of stories of college graduates living in their parents home, can’t find a job, blaming the economy.
And then there is the struggle of middle age employees where ppl who work for others start being pushed out as they get older and then have a hard time finding a job with their 20 years at one company. Especially in technology fields. (I see this a lot and it scares me).
Are they the minority of society?


The quick answer to this in the last years many students took Liberal arts degree which are mostly worthless. Nobody was honest and upfront with them that those degrees rarely translate into jobs.

It's a new problem with this woke and enlightened generation.
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sfisch




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:27 am
jkl wrote:
The quick answer to this in the last years many students took Liberal arts degree which are mostly worthless. Nobody was honest and upfront with them that those degrees rarely translate into jobs.

It's a new problem with this woke and enlightened generation.


Which translates, in this generation, to a larger percentage of educated people not being financially successful.. So after including this and many other factors , I wonder where there is a greater percentage of financial success - by chassidim or by educated non-chassidim.
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 6:56 am
jkl wrote:
There are a significant number of educated people who are not successful, but they're not the majority. But the number of chassidim who are struggling and/or relying on outside help for their daily necessities is in the majority.

If these people had a dozen kids, had to live where houses cost $3million, and had to keep kashrus shabbos yomtov, pay an exorbitant amount of tuition every year for 30 years straight, then they also might find themselves not that successful.
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 7:44 am
jkl wrote:
There are a significant number of educated people who are not successful, but they're not the majority. But the number of chassidim who are struggling and/or relying on outside help for their daily necessities is in the majority. .


If they are not the majority why is the country up in arms about student loan forgiveness, being overqualified for menial jobs, minimum wage, affordable housing and healthcare?

Why are there stories of waitresses with with masters, etc? Why are there so many stories of college educated people living with their parents. Choosing not to marry or have children? Even though they may want to?
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 8:04 am
sky wrote:
I have a hard time believing the majority of college educated people are successful.
If this true why is there such a huge movement to forgive college loans. If everyone is so successful why can’t they pay it back.
The news is full of stories of college graduates living in their parents home, can’t find a job, blaming the economy.
And then there is the struggle of middle age employees where ppl who work for others start being pushed out as they get older and then have a hard time finding a job with their 20 years at one company.
in technology fields. (I see this a lot and it scares me).
Are they the minority of society?


Statistically speaking, in the non Jewish world, college education is correlated with higher income. You can google for this information - someone with a masters or professional degree makes significantly more than someone with only a high school diploma.

That said, even that higher salary would not be enough for a Frum Jewish family to live on, so that's perhaps the real crux of the problem.

As for student loans - when colleges cost upward of $40k a year- and that's for a cheaper bachelor's degree - it can be a struggle to repay student loans even if someone is successful.

But the low average amount of the typical student loan debt leaves me to believe that the majority of student loans are held by students who did not finish college. Only a little over half of students who start college ever finish their degree, so for those who have student debt and no degree their student debt can be a bitter pill to swallow.

As for graduates moving back home - if it's so, I would imagine it says more about the students level of maturity and willingness to work than anything else. Almost everyone has to start off at the bottom and that's a reality that many can have a difficult time facing.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 8:07 am
sfisch wrote:
Interesting! I hear your opinion.
I still would love some better data.
There are so many factors. For example, chassidish men enter the workforce expecting to work hard in order to succeed, whereas I would imagine people who graduate with degrees expect to have an easier time making it.


Data is available with a quick Google search. Each level of degree is correlated with a rise in median income.
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juggling




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 8:10 am
jkl wrote:
The quick answer to this in the last years many students took Liberal arts degree which are mostly worthless. Nobody was honest and upfront with them that those degrees rarely translate into jobs.

It's a new problem with this woke and enlightened generation.

I'd be surprised if this is a new problem. People were going for liberal arts degrees that don't translate into jobs, at least since the 1970's, probably even earlier.

Also, especially in this generation, students shouldn't need to be told which degrees translate into jobs. It's easy enough to research different fields, how well they pay, and what education you need to work in the field.
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 9:50 am
juggling wrote:
I'd be surprised if this is a new problem. People were going for liberal arts degrees that don't translate into jobs, at least since the 1970's, probably even earlier.

Also, especially in this generation, students shouldn't need to be told which degrees translate into jobs. It's easy enough to research different fields, how well they pay, and what education you need to work in the field.


Liberal arts took off with a storm in the last years. It was related to liberalism and the push into ideologies. Ideals of the young often override sense, and it became even more of an issue when it became quite prestigious to be going for a liberal arts degree. In addition there was a push to get the students into these fields and the truth about future jobs was sort of whitewashed. It is only as of late that the truth has surfaced.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 10:04 am
jkl wrote:
Liberal arts took off with a storm in the last years. It was related to liberalism and the push into ideologies. Ideals of the young often override sense, and it became even more of an issue when it became quite prestigious to be going for a liberal arts degree. In addition there was a push to get the students into these fields and the truth about future jobs was sort of whitewashed. It is only as of late that the truth has surfaced.


Liberal arts degrees are actually extremely useful in order to get into a master's program. It has been a lifesaver for many in our community who can accomplish this degree quickly and start graduate school at a relatively young age.
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sfisch




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:11 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Data is available with a quick Google search. Each level of degree is correlated with a rise in median income.


But that’s not the data I’m looking for. We always hear that education is correlated with a rise in income. But the data I would want compares chassidish men to college educated people.

If we were to take a class of chassidish boys, and a typical public school class that receives a full education (Not inner city), which group would have a higher percentage of financially successful people.
Or comparing a class of chassidish boys to a graduating college class.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:15 pm
sfisch wrote:
But that’s not the data I’m looking for. We always hear that education is correlated with a rise in income. But the data I would want compares chassidish men to college educated people.

If we were to take a class of chassidish boys, and a typical public school class that receives a full education (Not inner city), which group would have a higher percentage of financially successful people.
Or comparing a class of chassidish boys to a graduating college class.


The median household income for places like New Square and Kiryas Joel is available online. You can compare that with the national average median income or median income for college educated households.

*edited


Last edited by Mommyg8 on Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sfisch




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:17 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
The median household income for places like New Square and Kiryas Joel is available online. You can compare that with the national average median income (and believe me there are many who love to point it out, and they're not our friends).


🤔
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