"White lie" re giyur status on shul membership application?

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Fox

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:05 pm

Leave it blank. These kinds of forms tend to have a life of their own within organizations. Someone adds an item, and it can remain there for decades even though no one looks at it or cares about it.

keym

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:06 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

Honestly, I think this is the definition of a white lie and the concept of לשנות מפני השלום. There are no consequences for you lying (or I omitting the truth) and you are sparring yourself potential embarrassment. I would have DH do it to protect you and I’m no rav but I think this is a textbook case where lying is permitted to preserve your well-being. You would also be protecting your prospective community from committing the issur Torah of onat hager. Why anyone would want to belong to such a community I can’t understand but I assume you’ve weighed the pros and cons.

You know I was thinking.
Geirus notwithstanding. Op has a concern about personal information being read and discussed and shared with your kids before she's ready to.
I would have that same concern about so many other things possibly on that application.
A child or parent diagnosis, physical disability, financial status, adoption/blended family/2nd marriage.
It's a serious red flag to me, that you're moving into a community and yet don't feel the shul staff is trusted to keep things discreet.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:11 pm

Can you go to ship without filling out the form? (I'm Israeli, and I've heard of shuls with membership, but it's a strange concept with me).

amother

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:15 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Can you go to ship without filling out the form? (I'm Israeli, and I've heard of shuls with membership, but it's a strange concept with me).

Good q. Our old shul didn't have "membership" and I don't like the idea. I suppose if we sent them a check every month and we never were "members" nobody would care.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:19 pm

I'd leave it blank and answer honestly if asked, but I'd bet they wouldn't even ask. It's not something that should matter so much, so whoever's precessing the registration probably just wouldn't enter it in the computer.

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:24 pm

It's been discussed on here before but in the Syrian community, even sons and grandsons of gerim are not counted in a minyon and honestly, even though the edict made sense for decades, it's wrong to punish the person for something that his grandparents did (converting) and I wouldn't blame the person for lying.
I think that it's dealt with somewhere that a shadchan is allowed to lie about a woman's age in order to encourage a man to meet her figuring that the truth will come out if it ever really needs to. I am not certain of this so ask a Rav if you are concerned but nobody is entitled to your private information and if it becomes relevant for a shidduch, it can be divulged then. I know someone in your exact situation who didn't even tell their own kids until they were in shidduchim.
What's the worst that can happen if you lie? A mohel will probably want to know about your status if you have a baby boy so it can become known. I don't know how realistic it is to think that nobody will ever find out but I don't think that you have to divulge this to the entire congregation.
Regarding the shul, however, you can always say that it's private information and didn't feel that it belongs on the shul application. You are not being counted in the minyon. You have a policy not to divulge this personal fact about yourself so for you, it's possibly not a lie at all. See if the Rav agrees with me and then we can high five.

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:32 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Good q. Our old shul didn't have "membership" and I don't like the idea. I suppose if we sent them a check every month and we never were "members" nobody would care.

Chabad houses get people who are not Jewish and who are not converting. They just want to learn about Judaism. The Rebbe gave brachas to all who came, both Jews and others, and non Jews visit the Ohel. You are correct that nobody cares about how you became Jewish and would probably not throw out a non Jew either.
You don't owe anyone personal information. Just pay and go on about your business. Let me know if the Rav agrees with me that you can lie because you have a policy not to tell.

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:38 pm

keym wrote:

I do understand when yeshivas want the answer to that question because they don't want to give someone a Torah education unless they are certain that they are Jewish. They also don't want people who are questionable being counted in a minyon but neither of those apply here.

amother

Mint

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:41 pm

southernbubby wrote:

What?! I'm horrified! How dare they treat geirim like this ?

amother

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:45 pm

southernbubby wrote:

If certainty that someone is Jewish is what they're after, "are you a convert and show us your papers if you are" doesn't really ensure certainty. The only way to ensure everyone is Jewish is to verify everyone's yichus. Why only demand conversion papers from people who voluntarily admit they're converts? Particularly in the more MO/BT/kiruv world, there are plenty of people think they're Jewish and don't even realize they're not Jewish. The has the consequence of embarrassing bona fide converts for no good reason. If this issue is so important and the problem so big, not have an anonymous yichus verification process akin to how financial aid works?

watergirl

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:48 pm

Can you meet with the rav of the shul and tell only him that you are a giures, and tell him your own rav told you that you do not have to disclose it on any forms?

SixOfWands

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:51 pm

southernbubby wrote:

As the OP stated, the question could be "confirm that you are halachically Jewish -- that is, that your mother and grandmother were halachically Jewish, or that you have undergone an Orthodox conversion." Or something like that.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:39 pm

Are you just planning to live there temporarily for a few years or long term? If it's temporary, then the stakes are lower. Do whatever you and your non-local rav are comfortable with. But when you do pick a community to settle in, it should be one where your children will be accepted regardless of whether people find out. They shouldn't be burdened with keeping it a secret.

I have a similar situation (except my mother eventually had an Orthodox conversion, but not until I was an adult), and I have found it best to be open with my children, my rabbi, and my community about my conversion. That doesn't mean I bring it up at every introduction or conversation, but I don't shy away from the topic if something related comes up.

My oldest child has known from age 3 or 4 that her great-grandmother is not Jewish, and she has known since age 5 that mommy was born not Jewish and dunked in the mikvah and became Jewish.

Maybe your situation is different. Do you have a relationship with your mother and her extended family? Is your mother open about her origins and will she be in contact with your children and visiting you in your community? Will you be visiting her and her family with your children?

I am close with my parents: they visit us and we visit them. My non-Jewish grandmother is still alive and my children visit her every time I visit my parents, as well as other non-Jewish relatives. I can't imagine deliberately misleading my children to think these family members are Jewish or asking my children, at any age, to keep what I tell them a secret from their younger blabby siblings or their friends.

Also, because we hope to stay in this community long term, our rabbi here is also the LOR to whom we ask our shailos and occasionally just ask for advice. That relationship is important and I want it to be one of trust. I can't imagine having the same relationship if I had to constantly be self-conscious never to reveal my background.

I guess I am not so worried that it's wrong to not check the box (if you're 100% certain that this shul would accept the conversion). But I think with only one little baby, it is hard for you right now to see the long term consequences and implications of keeping this a family secret. I don't think it's a fair burden to make a child feel that part of their identity and their origin is a secret.

For example, if you feel your oldest child is ready to know at age 12, does that mean she won't be allowed to tell her 9, 7, 4 year old siblings or her friends? 12 year olds aren't reliable secret keepers, but if they do keep a secret it is likely to be a source of stress.

Anyway, I see that you really want to do what is best for your kids and what is right. I applaud your thoughtfulness and I wish you the best of luck and I wish that anyone who does find out will be sensitive in how they treat your information. Hatzlacha.

amother

Pink

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:41 pm

You mentioned that your Mother had converted, while it was not an Orthodox conversion, it is still a conversion of sorts. If you were born after she was converted, then that might give you some wiggle room so to speak in regard to this application.

amother

Black

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 3:22 pm

I would skip it. Maybe skip another random box like "gender" for your son who has an obvious boys name. (Not like Sam which could be both a boy and a girl).
We have a similar situation. Everyone thinks DH is a BT but really is a Ger as his mom didn't have a kosher geirus. We don't want to shame anyone or have weird questions so he asked the shaila- gets called to the Torah under his father's name but our kesuba has Ben Avraham (the Rav who read it at the wedding knows the story and used my FIL's name but that has no halachic implication as the actual kesuba has the "right one").
We don't announce it, my kids have no reason to know (I am FFB and no geirim on my side so no yichus concerns). We love my MIL and have a close relationship with her and the whole family.
Only a few people know- my parents, the couple Rabbanim we ask shailas to- because it makes a big difference in terms of psak Halacha.
And it is Deoritah to not embarrass any Ger. And I do my best to not violate that one by not bringing it up, discussing etc unless absolutely needed. I say he is a BT. Why do people make it a big deal and cause so much pain to Geirim over it??

PinkFridge

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 5:24 pm

mommyhood wrote:

She said she specifically didn't ask daas Torah if she could lie.

I should have said, and if you do ask a rav.

thunderstorm

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 5:56 pm

watergirl wrote:

Can you meet with the rav of the shul and tell only him that you are a giures, and tell him your own rav told you that you do not have to disclose it on any forms?

I like this idea the best .

amother

Wine

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 6:13 pm

I agree you should speak to the Rav in private.

As the child of a giores, please do not make it into a big secret. Growing up I knew my mother coverted and my grandparents and cousins were not Jewish, but also that I shouldn't talk about it outside my family. Pretty sure everyone knew about it anyway. Once a (socially inept) girl came up to me and asked: Is your mother a convert? I said yes. Not nasty, just asking. No one else ever said anything and no one ever made me feel inferior but I seriously hated not being allowed to talk about my family, or feeling that I am wrong if I do so.

Now, I am the wife of a Rabbi in an OOT community. Lots of converts here and I am happy to share my lineage with them and others. I have so much love and respect for my mother, I would never ever look down on a gioress. If I were your Rabbi and you told me you were a gioress and the circumstances, I would be full of respect. If you kept it hidden, and I somehow would find out, I would think you are dishonest, and ashamed of yourself, and be puzzled at the secrecy and think you are not being fair to your kids. Most converts in my community do not keep it a secret.

Then again maybe I was just tremendously lucky in my positive experience. Maybe other communities are full of horrible people who will ostracise you and your family. (in which case, why move there?)

But I do think in keeping it hidden, you are perpetuating the stigma. Is it our business that ruth was a convert? Someone thought it was, and wrote her story.

Also, your kids not being shidduch age - they will be one day!!

We have had people lie to us about conversions, and its usually because they are not halchically valid. So it would look really bad if you did not say anything. I agree you probably don't need to write it on the form - but, please, tell the Rabbi. He can check up your beis din (he may not need to if it is well known) and zehu.

As for your kids, deal with like modern adoptive parents do - talk to them about it early. That way hearing about it on the playground won't be an issue.

Petra

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 6:17 pm

Personally, I wouldn't lie. I would always feel like I'm hiding something. Every single application I have filled out in the Jewish realm has somehow asked or implied my conversion status. On the other hand, I did't grow up feeling I was already Jewish or have a Jewish parent so my feelings about it come from a different place than yours.

Convert status isn't equivalent to Jew by birth though. Just isn't.

amother

Wine

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 6:17 pm

Sorry for long post and if I come across strong. I clearly feel very strongly about this!!! Smile

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