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"White lie" re giyur status on shul membership application?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 10:11 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:


Why is no summer camp checking "papers" for those who claim to be Jewish by birth?


Maybe the camps are trusting the schools' research?
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 10:42 am
PinkFridge wrote:
Maybe the camps are trusting the schools' research?


In what way are schools researching kids whose parents claim to be Jewish by birth? And if they are doing such research, aren't they also researching kids whose parents are converts?
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amother
Linen


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 10:47 am
The Rabbi may not be in charge of the membership application and in telling him, assume you're telling the BOD as well. This applies even if you get a haskama letter from your Rav.

There is no right to privacy when filling out such an application and it could be reviewed by any nosey person who has access to this file cabinet. New members are a curiosity and grist for any rumor mill.

My children's commuunity yeshiva requires this question be answered before they accept a child. This question was asked by all elementary and HS Yeshivas my siblings attended.

I believe moving forward this will be a greater issue in Israel as well, in light of the recent rise and recognition of non-orthodox rabbis.

OP, please hold off on being a member until you try out all the shuls. Then you'll see which Rabbi and membership you feel most comfortable with. You don't want to share this info before you're ready or in a shul you're not yet comfortable with. What if you apply here and then move to a different shul?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 10:48 am
Chabad run day camps that are for kiruv take anyone who claims to be Jewish. Sometimes it's necessary to inform them that they are in fact not Jewish.
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amother
Wine


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 10:56 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
In what way are schools researching kids whose parents claim to be Jewish by birth? And if they are doing such research, aren't they also researching kids whose parents are converts?


My husband is in charge of checking Jewish status for kids in a local school. He asks for a kesuba in the maternal line. (parents, or mothers parents, or even grandparent. Failing that documentation it gets more complicated) So really giyur status is irrelavant - if you and your husband have an orthodox kesubah, we can rely on your mesader kiddushin to have made sure you are both Jewish. (I am guessing you had to disclose your conversion to him)

BTW you are not any more Jewish then someone with no Jewish ancestry. (Except genetically as regards to medical conditions that affect Jews) I was born Jewish, I am not more Jewish then you, or my mother (who has no Jewish ancestry) or Moshe Rabbeinu. Once you had a kosher conversion you are as Jewish as anyone. The only people I have met who think otherwise are not frum people who are ignorant about halacha. (or the Israeli Rabbanut...who think they can decide that a woman who has live a frum life for many years is not Jewish.... Rolling Eyes ...disgraceful)

I do beleive that being open about this helps dispel stigma. Remember when no one would talk about miscarriage, or mental illness, or PPD, and special needs children were hidden away? Now those issues are so much more in the open.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 10:59 am
southernbubby wrote:
Chabad run day camps that are for kiruv take anyone who claims to be Jewish. Sometimes it's necessary to inform them that they are in fact not Jewish.


Chabad's approach appears different to other group approaches in this matter, as their mission is different. I'd be surprised if the shul OP is speaking of was chabad.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 11:00 am
I would not answer this question, or just check off that I am Jewish. When applying to yeshivas you for sure have to tell the truth and show your papers, but not for Shul. I don't think it's their business. You are going there to daaven and engage socially. If and when you become close to people there it is up to you to disclose what you feel comfortable with. Now it's nobody business. Gioret here and these questions just rub me the wrong way bc I feel that we are "lesser status" at least in my community it feels that way.
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 11:16 am
I guess I'm confused by some of the responses -- some people seem to be saying that schools check everyone's papers to some extent to verify they're Jewish, others seem to be saying that they only check papers if you voluntarily disclose that you're a convert. I suppose both happen at various schools. If they're checking everyone, that's fine. If they're checking only people who volunteer that they're converts, that's totally not okay.
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amother
Wine


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 11:49 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I guess I'm confused by some of the responses -- some people seem to be saying that schools check everyone's papers to some extent to verify they're Jewish, others seem to be saying that they only check papers if you voluntarily disclose that you're a convert. I suppose both happen at various schools. If they're checking everyone, that's fine. If they're checking only people who volunteer that they're converts, that's totally not okay.


afaik everyone. Depends on the school but its definitely a question we have been asked. I have also seen questions about adoptions in the family. A non frum family might adopt a child and not convert it k'halacha.

Depending on the school you send your child too you might just be asked for your kesubah.

I wonder how happy you would be OP if after attending this shul for 20 years your kid is close friends with another child who also goes to that shul, and you find out this child is not halachically Jewish. Like you, their parents refused to tick the box. The mother assumed her conservative giyur was perfectly valid. And when she realised it wasn't it was too late to own up. Of course this scenario is much less likely to happen if all the shul members are frum. But you never know. We met a young woman once who claimed she was Jewish and gave us reams of paperwork to prove it. She was seemingly frum, kept shabbos and kosher, dating a frum boy. After her (many!!) lies stopped adding up my husband realised her paperwork was fake, (looong story how we figured this out) and in fact we found out a few years previously she had been about to get married, when on the day the mesader kedushan called off the wedding becuase she had no paperwork to prove she was Jewish. No idea why a) she didn't just convert if she was already keeping mitzvos and b) why she was lying quite so much. (not just about being Jewish, but almost everything!) She is still around, telling everyone she is Jewish. So there are some really strange people around.
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:11 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
I wonder how happy you would be OP if after attending this shul for 20 years your kid is close friends with another child who also goes to that shul, and you find out this child is not halachically Jewish. Like you, their parents refused to tick the box. The mother assumed her conservative giyur was perfectly valid. And when she realised it wasn't it was too late to own up. Of course this scenario is much less likely to happen if all the shul members are frum. But you never know. We met a young woman once who claimed she was Jewish and gave us reams of paperwork to prove it. She was seemingly frum, kept shabbos and kosher, dating a frum boy. After her (many!!) lies stopped adding up my husband realised her paperwork was fake, (looong story how we figured this out) and in fact we found out a few years previously she had been about to get married, when on the day the mesader kedushan called off the wedding becuase she had no paperwork to prove she was Jewish. No idea why a) she didn't just convert if she was already keeping mitzvos and b) why she was lying quite so much. (not just about being Jewish, but almost everything!) She is still around, telling everyone she is Jewish. So there are some really strange people around.


You're making my point. It's a dumb and ineffective system to ask people to voluntarily admit they're converts and only show papers if they voluntary admit they're converts -- and to make nobody else show papers. Make EVERYONE show papers and prove their Jewishness, or don't ask anyone and deal with it.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:26 pm
I'm a convert and also hate being asked this question, however, I always just answer with the truth.

Before I converted, I tried to join my local shul and didn't understand at firat that I couldn't be a member if I wasn't Jewish. Everyone wanting to join had to prove they were Jewish, either by showing their parents' ketubah or a gerut certificate. When I eventually came to get married, both my husband and I had to prove we were Jewish by showing the same documents (DH is not a convert.) I think this is reasonable.

It is also common when joining a shul as a married person to show proof of your marriage, which would obviously also reveal your status.

Since you mentioned you are not comfortable telling the Rabbi of the new community because you don't know him, what about waiting a while before officially joining the shul, then telling him in confidence when you're more comfortable.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 1:14 pm
I have never been asked by a shul to prove that I was Jewish and only dealt with having to submit to sending a picture of my great grandmother's grave once.
We have been asked by schools what my mother's and grandmother's Hebrew names were.
I understand asking when there is a purpose for the information but what would a shul need to know this about a female applicant?
I also feel like anyone seeking a shidduch should do their own research and not rely on an institution or assume that a shul, school, camp, or the Israeli government has accurate info.
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 1:34 pm
Is the mesader kidushin even obligated to dig deeply to verify that someone born Jewish really is? Our rav did our wedding, and knew my conversion status, but he didn't do a thing to check into my husband's yichus. Husband is also BT; rabbi knows my in-laws and MIL would appear to be Jewish, but he had no way to know if she was truly Jewish and didn't ask for documentation.

It seems like with all of this, there are 101 ways to skin a cat. Some officiants, shuls, schools, camps, etc. probe really deeply for everyone, and others take your word for if you "seem Jewish," and others give you trouble only if you're a convert.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 1:42 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You're making my point. It's a dumb and ineffective system to ask people to voluntarily admit they're converts and only show papers if they voluntary admit they're converts -- and to make nobody else show papers. Make EVERYONE show papers and prove their Jewishness, or don't ask anyone and deal with it.

I know this is so hard and feels so unfair. The thing is, at this point, no one else has "papers". When my sister wanted to make aliyah, she had to get "papers" to prove she is Jewish, which meant she had to fill out the documents they provided and get a rav to vouch for her. I think she also had to get our parents ketuba or something. But other than your parents ketuba, there is nothing anyone else has to prove they are Jewish. I know it is a double standard. No one ever asked me to prove my children are Jewish and can attend yeshiva or camp, they just took my word for it. But I did have to fill out what my name is and what my mother's name was... maybe that was their way of ascertaining? I've had to provide that info on many school, camp, and shul documents.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 1:52 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Is the mesader kidushin even obligated to dig deeply to verify that someone born Jewish really is? Our rav did our wedding, and knew my conversion status, but he didn't do a thing to check into my husband's yichus. Husband is also BT; rabbi knows my in-laws and MIL would appear to be Jewish, but he had no way to know if she was truly Jewish and didn't ask for documentation.

It seems like with all of this, there are 101 ways to skin a cat. Some officiants, shuls, schools, camps, etc. probe really deeply for everyone, and others take your word for if you "seem Jewish," and others give you trouble only if you're a convert.


OP I was thinking about this too! Our mesader kiddushin knew my husband's family well but afaik he didn't do anything to verify my Jewishness. I'm a BT from a very traditional Jewish family, but nothing was asked. He's a well-known Yeshivish rav. I've only heard of this pictures of graves stuff for people getting married in Israel. I can't remember if the convert q was on our shul application.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:21 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Is the mesader kidushin even obligated to dig deeply to verify that someone born Jewish really is? Our rav did our wedding, and knew my conversion status, but he didn't do a thing to check into my husband's yichus. Husband is also BT; rabbi knows my in-laws and MIL would appear to be Jewish, but he had no way to know if she was truly Jewish and didn't ask for documentation.

It seems like with all of this, there are 101 ways to skin a cat. Some officiants, shuls, schools, camps, etc. probe really deeply for everyone, and others take your word for if you "seem Jewish," and others give you trouble only if you're a convert.


The mesader kiddushin should be asking lots of questions. Some people have had multiple marriages and didn't end all of them in a Beis Din.
If the mesader kiddushin makes assumptions, a lot of heartbreak can occur, such as a Kohein to a woman that he is not allowed to marry.
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:31 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Is the mesader kidushin even obligated to dig deeply to verify that someone born Jewish really is? Our rav did our wedding, and knew my conversion status, but he didn't do a thing to check into my husband's yichus. Husband is also BT; rabbi knows my in-laws and MIL would appear to be Jewish, but he had no way to know if she was truly Jewish and didn't ask for documentation.

It seems like with all of this, there are 101 ways to skin a cat. Some officiants, shuls, schools, camps, etc. probe really deeply for everyone, and others take your word for if you "seem Jewish," and others give you trouble only if you're a convert.

The messader Kiddushin has a reason to check any person's status and should have checked your husband's as well ( but seems like his family is well known and wasn't necessary) but schools, shuls, camps have no reason to ask if you converted or not.
People ask more or less depending on the community, smaller communities usually ask more since they seem to know each other and are more wary of people they don't know.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:46 pm
OP, when marrying under orthodox Judaism, every woman has to prove they are Jewish. We all have to prove pedigree one way or another.

Before I married, the mesade kedushin (close with dh's family) asked my mom who married her and my dad and checked into our family bc he didn't know me.

If the rav marrying you isn't familiar with the wive's family, he certainly verifies who she is through verified jewish geography. This may not be necessary if your family is part of a close knit yeshiva or chassidus and you're marrying "in".

Im a 1st gen American Galiciana and my dh is a 3rd generation American litvak. The rav didnt know our family and it was across state lines,, so he confirmed through inquiry that I was a Jew.

If I was a giyores, he'd have verified my geirus. It's much easier for a male ger than a female one. I'm sorry for that.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:48 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
OP, when marrying under orthodox Judaism, every woman has to prove they are Jewish. We all have to prove pedigree one way or another.

Before I married, the mesade kedushin (close with dh's family) asked my mom who married her and my dad and checked into our family bc he didn't know me.

If the rav marrying you isn't familiar with the wive's family, he certainly verifies who she is through verified jewish geography. This may not be necessary if your family is part of a close knit yeshiva or chassidus and you're marrying "in".

Im a 1st gen American Galiciana and my dh is a 3rd generation American litvak. The rav didnt know our family and it was across state lines,, so he confirmed through inquiry that I was a Jew.

If I was a giyores, he'd have verified my geirus. It's much easier for a male ger than a female one. I'm sorry for that.

Are you sure about that? I was married twice and never had to prove anything.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:53 pm
watergirl wrote:
Are you sure about that? I was married twice and never had to prove anything.


Do you know the rav didnt check into your status? It could be as casual as asking someone he knows if they know your family. Its not necessarily the 3rd degree. Our mesader kedushin was pretty forward about it because I ask too many questions.

2nd marriage is different if the1st marriage was conducted by a known rav, and there's a kosher get.

It could even be asking anyone who your side gave kibbudim to at the wedding. Jewish geography is a small world.
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