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More than/ less than vs different but equal
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chick567




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:47 am
There are some times where things are measured on a spectrum and other times where things are equal but different.

If a person is very learned in Torah and has zero secular education, we don't say he is uneducated. We say he is very educated in Torah.

If a person is very educated in secular studies but has zero learning in Torah, we say he is very educated in secular studies.

Both individuals are equally educated, but differently educated.

Now let's say you have a person who is highly educated in BOTH secular and Torah, we say he is MORE educated overall than the previous persons who were only educated in one.

(for the purpose of this example we will assume the level reached in the previous examples is equal. Obviously someone with a PHD and someone with a highschool diploma are different levels of educated. Just like a person who learned Torah through highschool level and a person who has Dayanus and is a Rav are different levels.)

The same "spectrum" vs "different but equal" philosophy applies to the religious sphere. I see many women getting offended at the claim that some people are more religious than others. They say everyone is equally frum even if they are different.

If a person who is MO and a person who is yeshivish, keep an equal number of mitzvos, but live life differently through having different hashkafos, I would call them equally frum, but differently frum.

However if you have a person who keeps 10 mitzvos and ignores the rest (regardless of the reason why) and you compare him to a person who keeps 230 mitzvos and ignores the rest, the person who keeps more mitzvos should be called more frum.

There are people from different paths who are equally frum but differently frum, and there are people from either the same path or a different path who are more or less frum than each other.
More frum = keeping more mitzvos. Less frum =keeping less mitzvos. Obviously some mitzvos are more valuable than others.

In the same way the phrase "everyone sins differently" is absolutely true but only when applied to people who keep the same number of mitzvos and the same number of sins.
But again, some sins are more heavy than others, just like some mitzvos are more heavy than others. (and it doesn't take into consideration people who almost never sin at all, due to their conscientiousness)

The only area of disagreement in these arguments lies in which mitzvos and aveiros weigh more.

My point is that there are people who are differently but equally frum, and there are people who are more or less frum than each other, and the 2 are not to be interchanged.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:51 am
Nicely said.
Also, another person’s observance is not your business. Feel free to educate your own children as you wish.
And, book smarts and street smarts are not one and the same.
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Crookshanks




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:07 pm
I don't know why I followed this thread. I think I'm just a glutton for punishment. I wonder how long we have before it goes off the rails Hiding
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juggling




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:09 pm
I think it's important to distinguish between "more" vs "better". You can't really argue that a person who's keeping the strictest opinion in halacha isn't doing "more". But you can argue that their "more" isn't necessarily the "better" way to observe.

Likewise, it's important to distinguish between "more stringently observant" vs "more religious". A person may be deeply religious but keep less stringent practices, or be not very religious but observe very stringently.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:11 pm
Can we please just stop trying to justify comparisons???? Have we not learned enough from the other threads started today? WE ARE NOT THE JUDGES OF WHO IS MORE OR LESS
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BatyaEsther




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 12:45 pm
Can I just point out that the schar for shiluach hakan and kibud av v’em are the same. To my understanding, the Torah tells us this to teach us that we have NO IDEA how Hashem ranks the mitzvot, and just because something is hard vs easy or seems simplistic or doesn’t make sense to us (think parah adumah or techelet), doesn’t mean Hashem doesn’t have a plan. So the idea of some mitzvot being more important and some people being better than others, I’m just not buying.

I won’t even mention how hilchot kashrut stems from not cooking a calf in IT’S mother’s milk. Waiting 6 hours and different plates for chicken which was washed with a different sponge, which I of course do-is Hashem so proud of us or laughing? We won’t know until we get to shamayim.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:11 pm
chickaboo wrote:
There are some times where things are measured on a spectrum and other times where things are equal but different.

If a person is very learned in Torah and has zero secular education, we don't say he is uneducated. We say he is very educated in Torah.

If a person is very educated in secular studies but has zero learning in Torah, we say he is very educated in secular studies.

Both individuals are equally educated, but differently educated.

Now let's say you have a person who is highly educated in BOTH secular and Torah, we say he is MORE educated overall than the previous persons who were only educated in one.

(for the purpose of this example we will assume the level reached in the previous examples is equal. Obviously someone with a PHD and someone with a highschool diploma are different levels of educated. Just like a person who learned Torah through highschool level and a person who has Dayanus and is a Rav are different levels.)

The same "spectrum" vs "different but equal" philosophy applies to the religious sphere. I see many women getting offended at the claim that some people are more religious than others. They say everyone is equally frum even if they are different.

If a person who is MO and a person who is yeshivish, keep an equal number of mitzvos, but live life differently through having different hashkafos, I would call them equally frum, but differently frum.

However if you have a person who keeps 10 mitzvos and ignores the rest (regardless of the reason why) and you compare him to a person who keeps 230 mitzvos and ignores the rest, the person who keeps more mitzvos should be called more frum.

There are people from different paths who are equally frum but differently frum, and there are people from either the same path or a different path who are more or less frum than each other.
More frum = keeping more mitzvos. Less frum =keeping less mitzvos. Obviously some mitzvos are more valuable than others.

In the same way the phrase "everyone sins differently" is absolutely true but only when applied to people who keep the same number of mitzvos and the same number of sins.
But again, some sins are more heavy than others, just like some mitzvos are more heavy than others. (and it doesn't take into consideration people who almost never sin at all, due to their conscientiousness)

The only area of disagreement in these arguments lies in which mitzvos and aveiros weigh more.

My point is that there are people who are differently but equally frum, and there are people who are more or less frum than each other, and the 2 are not to be interchanged.
And the bolded is exactly where posters get in trouble here and arguments start and people say that this person isnt frum because they dont do x.
It is nobody's job to make this shikul except god.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:26 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
And the bolded is exactly where posters get in trouble here and arguments start and people say that this person isnt frum because they dont do x.
It is nobody's job to make this shikul except god.


Yes exactly! I really really hate when I see people saying " Oh I thought you had to be from to be on here " is absolutely extremely rude and I don't believe anyone would say that to someone's face so you shouldn't be saying it online either
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:33 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
Can we please just stop trying to justify comparisons???? Have we not learned enough from the other threads started today? WE ARE NOT THE JUDGES OF WHO IS MORE OR LESS


I didn’t see this as justifying comparisons, am I reading this wrong? Her point was that different paths in observance do not equal different levels of observance.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 1:54 pm
My only argument with the OP is your statement that "Obviously some mitzvos are more valuable than others."

Not necessarily. Hevei zahir bemitzvah kalah kevachamurah, and in truth there is no such thing as a mitzvah kalah. Consider shiluach haken, which is easy-shmeazy and really a "throwaway" because chances are you'd do it anyway to avoid being pecked to death or slimed by an enraged mother bird. Yet the reward is long life, exactly the same as kibbud av va'em. So the idea that some mitzvot are more "valuable" than others is clearly false, and even if it were true, WE have no clue which are which.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:08 pm
tigerwife wrote:
I didn’t see this as justifying comparisons, am I reading this wrong? Her point was that different paths in observance do not equal different levels of observance.

OP wrote “however, if you have a person who keeps 10 mitzvos and ignores the rest, and you compare him to a person who keeps 230 mitzvos and ignores the rest, the person who keeps more mitzvos should be called more frum.”
Again, the assumption that an MO woman does less than a yeshivish or chareidi or yeshivish woman. Why? Because of how she dresses. Her intention might have been as you say, but her words make a comparison. Unless you want to tell me that she didn’t mean the MO woman is the one doing 10 mitzvos and the yeshivish/chareidi/chassidish woman is actually the one doing 10.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:21 pm
Cue to Kazablan/Kulanu Yehudim. Sorry I can't find a reliable link.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:22 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Cue to Kazablan/Kulanu Yehudim. Sorry I can't find a reliable link.

The who and the what?????
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:53 pm
https://youtu.be/Vwn2H62Uaj8
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professor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 2:57 pm
professor wrote:
https://youtu.be/Vwn2H62Uaj8


Warning: Don't listen now, sefira
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 3:03 pm
professor wrote:
Warning: Don't listen now, sefira
Here is actually a perfect example of something that some people keep and others dont Wink
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 3:04 pm
professor wrote:
https://youtu.be/Vwn2H62Uaj8


Love it!
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 3:06 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Here is actually a perfect example of something that some people keep and others dont Wink


Oops! I clicked on it before I realized. embarrassed

I don't count the Omer, so I need to put a note on my computer to remind me that it's sefira.
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iyar




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 3:24 pm
chickaboo wrote:
There are some times where things are measured on a spectrum and other times where things are equal but different.

If a person is very learned in Torah and has zero secular education, we don't say he is uneducated. We say he is very educated in Torah.

If a person is very educated in secular studies but has zero learning in Torah, we say he is very educated in secular studies.

Both individuals are equally educated, but differently educated.

Now let's say you have a person who is highly educated in BOTH secular and Torah, we say he is MORE educated overall than the previous persons who were only educated in one.

(for the purpose of this example we will assume the level reached in the previous examples is equal. Obviously someone with a PHD and someone with a highschool diploma are different levels of educated. Just like a person who learned Torah through highschool level and a person who has Dayanus and is a Rav are different levels.)

The same "spectrum" vs "different but equal" philosophy applies to the religious sphere. I see many women getting offended at the claim that some people are more religious than others. They say everyone is equally frum even if they are different.

If a person who is MO and a person who is yeshivish, keep an equal number of mitzvos, but live life differently through having different hashkafos, I would call them equally frum, but differently frum.

However if you have a person who keeps 10 mitzvos and ignores the rest (regardless of the reason why) and you compare him to a person who keeps 230 mitzvos and ignores the rest, the person who keeps more mitzvos should be called more frum.

There are people from different paths who are equally frum but differently frum, and there are people from either the same path or a different path who are more or less frum than each other.
More frum = keeping more mitzvos. Less frum =keeping less mitzvos. Obviously some mitzvos are more valuable than others.

In the same way the phrase "everyone sins differently" is absolutely true but only when applied to people who keep the same number of mitzvos and the same number of sins.
But again, some sins are more heavy than others, just like some mitzvos are more heavy than others. (and it doesn't take into consideration people who almost never sin at all, due to their conscientiousness)

The only area of disagreement in these arguments lies in which mitzvos and aveiros weigh more.

My point is that there are people who are differently but equally frum, and there are people who are more or less frum than each other, and the 2 are not to be interchanged.


You came to this conclusion how exactly?

We don't get to judge what's important or what anyone should be doing or what makes anyone a tzaddik a rasha or anything in between. We each have to do our own personal cheshbon hanefesh and do the best we can and that's it.

(I'm not saying there haven't been great people like the Rambam, the Ramchal, the Gra, the Ba'al Hatanya and others who gave us guidance in getting our priorities in order. But none of us here can make calculations like this.)
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 08 2021, 3:33 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
OP wrote “however, if you have a person who keeps 10 mitzvos and ignores the rest, and you compare him to a person who keeps 230 mitzvos and ignores the rest, the person who keeps more mitzvos should be called more frum.”
Again, the assumption that an MO woman does less than a yeshivish or chareidi or yeshivish woman. Why? Because of how she dresses. Her intention might have been as you say, but her words make a comparison. Unless you want to tell me that she didn’t mean the MO woman is the one doing 10 mitzvos and the yeshivish/chareidi/chassidish woman is actually the one doing 10.


I hear. I didn’t read those intentions.
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