 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Judaism
-> Halachic Questions and Discussions
|
amother
OP
|
 Thu, Apr 08 2021, 7:39 pm
Based on the many recent threads I had some thoughts. Why don't we all do the very bare minimum to be yotzei and to not be punished? If there are no levels why should we even strive to do anything better or more? I was under the impression that there are best and extra ways to do things and if we can, we should strive for the highest level. ( The highest level might be understood differently by different people ) And that the bare minimums are there for people that can't do more, not that no one should ideally be doing more. Are there sources that say otherwise?
This is not about discussing different streams of judaism. Just a general question of what we should strive for as people.
| |
|
| Back to top |
 1
 2
|
|
amother
Amethyst
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:11 pm
Because more isn't necessarily better.
Keeping shabbos is the rule. Adding a little bit extra at the beginning and end is a nice thing to do. Keeping shabbos into Tuesday is ridiculous. Covering some body parts is the rule. Covering a little extra guarantees full coverage at all times. Wearing a burqa is over the top. Etc.
Often, a chumra in one area of life is going to impact something else. If I don't use the eruv on shabbos and don't take my kids to the park, they will enjoy shabbos less. Which value matters more? Sometimes the thing that's right for one stage of life is wrong for another.
We should try to do things as well as we can. We also have to balance different needs and values as we look at the big picture.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
28
|
tigerwife
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:20 pm
|
There is always room for growth. Make sure you are growing for Hashem and not for other people. External change is easier than internal change.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
16
|
|
amother
OP
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:21 pm
| amother [ Amethyst ] wrote: | Because more isn't necessarily better.
Keeping shabbos is the rule. Adding a little bit extra at the beginning and end is a nice thing to do. Keeping shabbos into Tuesday is ridiculous. Covering some body parts is the rule. Covering a little extra guarantees full coverage at all times. Wearing a burqa is over the top. Etc.
Often, a chumra in one area of life is going to impact something else. If I don't use the eruv on shabbos and don't take my kids to the park, they will enjoy shabbos less. Which value matters more? Sometimes the thing that's right for one stage of life is wrong for another.
We should try to do things as well as we can. We also have to balance different needs and values as we look at the big picture. |
I mean things we have sources for, like starting shabbos early, not carrying it into tuesday. About values I don't think we have that option to make things more enjoyable by doing something wrong. If the eruv is kosher then I agree no reason not to use it, but if there are issues with it then you can't decide the kids need to go to the park, find a way to entertain them inside. I don't understand what you mean by values. My values align with the torah they don't go against it. I don't see why it has to be a conflict.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
4
|
|
amother
Amethyst
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:36 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | I mean things we have sources for, like starting shabbos early, not carrying it into tuesday. About values I don't think we have that option to make things more enjoyable by doing something wrong. If the eruv is kosher then I agree no reason not to use it, but if there are issues with it then you can't decide the kids need to go to the park, find a way to entertain them inside. I don't understand what you mean by values. My values align with the torah they don't go against it. I don't see why it has to be a conflict. |
You don't understand what I mean by values? That's worrisome.
Our lives are full of choices, and our choices reflect our values within the bounds of halacha. Daven for longer or help out a neighbor? Buy from the super-kosher butcher or from the guy with the "lower" but totally acceptable level of kashrus and support a local business? Go to a wedding or to parent teacher conferences? Give tzedaka to cause A or cause B?
There's a lot of grey, and a lot of room for individuality.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
10
|
|
amother
OP
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:38 pm
| amother [ Amethyst ] wrote: | You don't understand what I mean by values? That's worrisome.
Our lives are full of choices, and our choices reflect our values within the bounds of halacha. Daven for longer or help out a neighbor? Buy from the super-kosher butcher or from the guy with the "lower" but totally acceptable level of kashrus and support a local business? Go to a wedding or to parent teacher conferences? Give tzedaka to cause A or cause B?
There's a lot of grey, and a lot of room for individuality. |
No need to worry about me, I meant in your context. Your post sounded like values trump torah. So I was asking what you are basing those values on. Your examples here are very different than the other ones. These are choices between two good but different things. Those were questions of personal feelings over following the torah.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
3
|
|
amother
Amethyst
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:43 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | No need to worry about me, I meant in your context. Your post sounded like values trump torah. So I was asking what you are basing those values on. Your examples here are very different than the other ones. These are choices between two good but different things. Those were questions of personal feelings over following the torah. |
Halacha sometimes takes feelings into account. The two are not mutually exclusive. For example, a parent may travel with a child to the hospital on shabbos just to provide emotional support. The child's feelings have validity within the halachic system.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
7
|
PinkFridge
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:57 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Based on the many recent threads I had some thoughts. Why don't we all do the very bare minimum to be yotzei and to not be punished? If there are no levels why should we even strive to do anything better or more? I was under the impression that there are best and extra ways to do things and if we can, we should strive for the highest level. ( The highest level might be understood differently by different people ) And that the bare minimums are there for people that can't do more, not that no one should ideally be doing more. Are there sources that say otherwise?
This is not about discussing different streams of judaism. Just a general question of what we should strive for as people. |
We want a relationship with Hashem, so we'll do mitzvas beyond the bare minimum.
1. If we ever have a shaila about how to do the mitzvah most appropriately we ask a shaila. (Think TH.) Once we do that, we are showing that we value Hashem's instructions.
2. Zeh Keili va'anveihu. This is Hashem and we will beautify His mitzvos.
It's not a contest, who can do more or the most. It's following the process and shivim panim l'Torah; it won't look identical in each home.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
6
|
|
amother
Ruby
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:06 pm
Time, money, willpower, energy, mental health, and other resources are finite. Some people have extra in one or more categories, but almost everyone also has a deficit in one or more categories. Just the basics of living a healthy life with a spouse and children require a lot of these resources. Most people don't have oodles and oodles to spare.
If you are putting extra into a mitzvah, it is often (of course, not always) at the cost of something or someone else, directly or indirectly. People don't always consider the costs of the extra.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
6
|
tigerwife
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:10 pm
| amother [ Amethyst ] wrote: | You don't understand what I mean by values? That's worrisome.
Our lives are full of choices, and our choices reflect our values within the bounds of halacha. Daven for longer or help out a neighbor? Buy from the super-kosher butcher or from the guy with the "lower" but totally acceptable level of kashrus and support a local business? Go to a wedding or to parent teacher conferences? Give tzedaka to cause A or cause B?
There's a lot of grey, and a lot of room for individuality. |
It seemed to me that the OP was thinking of choices like saying tehilim in your free time, or going out of your way to do a Chesed for someone, or avoiding an area where there is sure to be pritzus- versus chilling at home or watching a movie or just having a nice time, none of which is assur. Reaching beyond your comfort zone to do mitzvos, rather than just doing them as they come up. Not choosing between two kinds of mitzvos.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
4
|
Ema of 5
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:13 pm
|
We should strive to do the best that WE can, to form the best relationship with Hashem that WE can, and not compare to others.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
3
|
|
amother
OP
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:18 pm
| Ema of 4 wrote: | | We should strive to do the best that WE can, to form the best relationship with Hashem that WE can, and not compare to others. |
And that's what my question is about what we as people should strive for. I never said anything about comparing anyone. Can we keep this thread free of that stuff?
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
4
|
Ema of 5
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:21 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | And that's what my question is about what we as people should strive for. I never said anything about comparing anyone. Can we keep this thread free of that stuff? |
Sorry, I was just trying to say that better is a personal term- better for me isn’t the same as better for you. More for me isn’t the same as more for you.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
4
|
|
amother
OP
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:34 pm
|
To clarify what I'm asking, I have areas that are super easy for me. I can go above and beyond without blinking or affecting anyone or anything because it's just natural and easy. Then I have other areas that the bare minimum is hard for me to do. But in my mind I am not doing the best thing in those areas. Yes for now in life within my limits I can't actually do more, but in the back of my mind I feel that if my struggles were removed I would be doing more. So I have levels I do strive for. For some things I reach it easily and for others I will probably never reach them. Isn't that how we are supposed to live? Or should I just be happy learning what the bare minimum of everything is and then just happily staying there.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
3
|
pizzapie
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:47 pm
|
We are all here to bring more kevod shamayim into this world. Hashem created us differently, with each person having different areas that are easy and hard for them. I once heard that a person should work on himself specifically in the areas that are easy for him. Obviously a person should work on himself in all areas but the point is that a person is created with strong points for a reason and should utilize them in order to serve Hashem. Sometimes by working on a middah that is already a strong point that can spill over into other middos that are harder for a person.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
6
|
Simple1
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:57 pm
|
It’s good to be machmir. But if you are not holding at that level, it could backfire. I like PFs suggestion to ask a shaila when in doubt.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
1
|
|
amother
Tangerine
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 10:12 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Based on the many recent threads I had some thoughts. Why don't we all do the very bare minimum to be yotzei and to not be punished? If there are no levels why should we even strive to do anything better or more? I was under the impression that there are best and extra ways to do things and if we can, we should strive for the highest level. ( The highest level might be understood differently by different people ) And that the bare minimums are there for people that can't do more, not that no one should ideally be doing more. Are there sources that say otherwise?
This is not about discussing different streams of judaism. Just a general question of what we should strive for as people. |
Let's define the highest level. Is the highest level taking a mitzvah to the extreme, or is it keeping it well balanced? Who says covering up to the nth degree is the highest level? Perhaps the highest level is dressing up without additions to the halacha, yet still looking refined and appropriately dressed in your times? (In other words, is the burka the highest level or maybe its dressing up as its the 1960s the higher level? Or perhaps, its the challenge up dressing up as per halacha, yet still dressed refined and appropriately as per the 21st century)?
Now lets define what's best and extra. We are individuals, what's best and extra for you, may not be best and extra for someone else. So you do the best and extra can be exactly the same level as someone not doing that particular best and extra for themselves. Best and extra has nothing to do with externals. It is a personal and spiritual feeling per individual. You can't define something as best and extra and then go around using your external perspective as a measuring stick for spiritual levels.
Furthermore, I'd like to point out that choosing a best and extra path should only be relegated to an individual. Its wrong to put this on your children without giving them a choice to decide if they want to do that best and extra path. If you decide that covering your sheitel is best and extra, why must your children follow suit? That's a personal spiritual choice, and your children should get to make their own spiritual choices. It may not beautify their mitzvah at all, it may make them resentful of the mitzvah. No one should define someone else's spirituality. You can teach your kids all about it and explain to them why you chose to do it, but let them decide if this is a meaningful action to them.
And then there's the cost of doing best and extra. If you choose to do the best and extra, but it affects others in a negative way, then it is probably not best and extra at all. One of the most important things that the Torah teaches us is to always be careful how our actions affect others.
So, to summarize.
- Best and extra may not always be a higher level.
- Best and extra may be a higher level for one, while not doing best and extra may be the higher level for the other.
- Best and extra is an internal, personal spirituality, it is not something external.
- Best and extra should be only for themselves, and should not be forced upon others (including their children) to follow suit.
- If doing best and extra affects others, it is not best and extra at all.
So with that in mind, how can anyone define who or what is on a higher level?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
6
|
|
amother
OP
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 10:30 pm
| amother [ Tangerine ] wrote: | Let's define the highest level. Is the highest level taking a mitzvah to the extreme, or is it keeping it well balanced? Who says covering up to the nth degree is the highest level? Perhaps the highest level is dressing up without additions to the halacha, yet still looking refined and appropriately dressed in your times? (In other words, is the burka the highest level or maybe its dressing up as its the 1960s the higher level? Or perhaps, its the challenge up dressing up as per halacha, yet still dressed refined and appropriately as per the 21st century)?
Now lets define what's best and extra. We are individuals, what's best and extra for you, may not be best and extra for someone else. So you do the best and extra can be exactly the same level as someone not doing that particular best and extra for themselves. Best and extra has nothing to do with externals. It is a personal and spiritual feeling per individual. You can't define something as best and extra and then go around using your external perspective as a measuring stick for spiritual levels.
Furthermore, I'd like to point out that choosing a best and extra path should only be relegated to an individual. Its wrong to put this on your children without giving them a choice to decide if they want to do that best and extra path. If you decide that covering your sheitel is best and extra, why must your children follow suit? That's a personal spiritual choice, and your children should get to make their own spiritual choices. It may not beautify their mitzvah at all, it may make them resentful of the mitzvah. No one should define someone else's spirituality. You can teach your kids all about it and explain to them why you chose to do it, but let them decide if this is a meaningful action to them.
And then there's the cost of doing best and extra. If you choose to do the best and extra, but it affects others in a negative way, then it is probably not best and extra at all. One of the most important things that the Torah teaches us is to always be careful how our actions affect others.
So, to summarize.
- Best and extra may not always be a higher level.
- Best and extra may be a higher level for one, while not doing best and extra may be the higher level for the other.
- Best and extra is an internal, personal spirituality, it is not something external.
- Best and extra should be only for themselves, and should not be forced upon others (including their children) to follow suit.
- If doing best and extra affects others, it is not best and extra at all.
So with that in mind, how can anyone define who or what is on a higher level? |
I'm talking about internal striving and higher levels based on yourself. I don't think you can compare people. I agree it's very personal. But we should strive to do our best not just choose to automatically do the bare minimum across the board. And I'm talking about the very bare minimum in actual halacha not community standards.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
2
|
|
amother
Tan
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:06 pm
| amother [ Amethyst ] wrote: | | Halacha sometimes takes feelings into account. The two are not mutually exclusive. For example, a parent may travel with a child to the hospital on shabbos just to provide emotional support. The child's feelings have validity within the halachic system. |
I’m under the impression that this is because the sick person’s feelings can actually impact their medical outcome, not a question of whether feelings have validity. That the emotional support falls under pikuach nefesh.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
7
|
|
amother
White
|
Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:18 pm
|
I agree with you 100 percent. I can daven Brachos or the whole davening, with kavanah or without. I can notice and push a wagon out of someone's way (this happened today) or just pretend I don't notice. I can be patient with a child or just quick. I can work on my gratitude or just go about my day (of course I say Mode AnI) I can just dress tznius according to Halacha or be mindful not to dress provocatively. So many more examples. We try to grow all the time in all ways.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
8
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
