S/o what should we be striving for?

amother

Saddlebrown

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 5:27 pm

icebreaker wrote:

Striving for more, in terms of what? I do what many here would consider the bare minimum and I’m quite happy. I’m not sure what exactly I should be striving for if I feel like I am where I need to be. I mean, every day, I strive to be the best person and Jew that I can, but I don’t think that’s what’s being discussed.

For examples: You can strive to have more kavana in your davening. If you don't daven, you can strive to find time to daven one tefila a day. You can strive to be more careful with shmiras halashon.
You can strive to be a bit more patient with your kids, be a little more respectful to your mother, or make a phone call to a lonely person.
You can strive to keep your eyes from seeing unclean things, you can strive to light candles a few minutes earlier on Friday (tosfos Shabbos), you can strive to be more careful in tznius. You can strive to be more honest, and stay away from any half-truths, you can strive to use clean language. You can strive to learn 2 halachos a day.

amother

Amethyst

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 1:31 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

So what I'm gathering is this might be a difference of opinion between orthodox and Modern othodox? Orthodox is about always living with the torah leading our lives, and always striving for greater heights, and modern orthodox is that just keeping the basic level of mitzvos is perfect and striving is just not part of the goal?

Not even close. Modern Orthodoxy is about being ovdei Hashem in all areas of life. It's about recognizing Hashem's role in the natural world, and in history. It's about extending talmud Torah to the entire community. It offers opportunities for kiddush Hashem that are not available to people who live in insular communities. It is a life centered around Torah in every way.

There are MO Jews who are scrupulous about everything, and there are those who are very lax. (As there are in every community.) There are areas of halacha (tefilla bezman, yishuv eretz yisrael) that are given a focus and attention that you might not find elsewhere. It's not focused on the externals.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 4:54 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

I think that there is a fundamental philosophical difference between (for lack of better words and recognizing these umbrellas are broad) chareidi Judaism and modern orthodoxy as to whether "more is better".
In chareidi outlook, it is praiseworthy to be more stringent and perceived to be a higher level. In other communities, the a Jews responsibility is to keep halacha. Doing more is not better. So comparing the outcomes of these two outlooks is pointless.
Added to this are all types of cultural norms that are confused with chumrah but are really are not based in halacha.

Yes, exactly. And for some reason on this site, anyone who does not think that more is better is not frum or is not ok. That is wrong.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 4:56 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

It's not the outcome, it's the mindset. Our mindset is how can I do this in the best way possible. So if my Rav says that it's better to wear skirts to the floor I will try to, not that if he says skirts covering the knees I will wear longer. However we interpret Torah to uphold that to the utmost. It's ok if our Rabbonim interpret Torah differently. However, having an attitude of Hidur Mitzvah, Diyuk Mitzvos, Chumros (as defined by Halacha), Simcha Bimitzvos are all the philosophy of ultra orthodox as opposed to Modern Orthodox. We don't need to agree with each other and there are plusses and minuses to both. But let's understand each other and ask to understand each other instead of putting each other down.

Of course. But the minute someone MO says that xyz is how we do things and someone charedi never heard of that or disagrees, the MO person is either not frum or doing things wrong. And that should not be how it is.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 5:00 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

OK, first, its not orthodox and modern orthodox. We are also orthodox. It is ultra and modern orthodox. Both completely and truly orthodox.
And I am sure that many modern orthodox people strive, but it may just look very different than a charedi or ultra orthodox's striving.
The crux of what is most important in each community is very different I presume.

amother

Amber

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 9:39 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

We can all strive in all areas of life. You can resume your abandoned studies of foreign languages, keep up with current events, wash your floors more often than once a week, and use fewer disposables. You can brush and floss more often, eat more vegetables, waste less money, smile more, call your Tante Rochel more often,nosh less ...what's your point?

amother

Peach

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 10:19 pm

We are always supposed to be striving as jews to better ourselves and the key is to try to do things that will bring us closer to Hashem and make Him happy. Everyone at their own level should be trying to perform the mitzvahs in the best way possible, with joy and with enthusiasm.
As women, MO or charedi or any background, its important to know that tznius is the primary mitzvah to keep and to constantly try to grow in. When Hashem created Chava he said over every limb "she should be a modest woman", He didnt mention anything else. Obviously every mitzvah is important but we are judged in the next world mostly on our modesty.
There is no extreme in tznius. Because of the yeridas hadoros we have lost so much sensitivity to real tznius. The more modest a woman is the better, and the more beloved she is to Hashem. Hashem wants us to self sacrifice, there is no other area today to self sacrifice in besides for modesty. All other mitzvos are so easy today - kosher, shabbos etc... the one area which everyone just hates to hear about and it always causes an uproar is tznius. (Which just shows how important it is)
And the only mitzvah where a woman will feel embarrassment doing the will of Hashen is tznius. When a woman works on her modesty and takes on higher levels, most of the time instead of getting respect, she will be viewed as not "with it", not socially accepted, extreme etc...
Really she should be admired and looked up to, but that's not what happens with true modesty.
It's really easy to do chesed and make challah etc... but it is NOT easy to be truly modest - that is where the major schar is. As Dovid Hamelech said- he was jealous of a modest womans schar
So if someone wants to try to strive the area that is the most important to strive in is modesty

Ema of 5

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 10:38 pm

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

There is no extreme in tzniut? What about the burka ladies, or lev tahor? They are not extreme? Women who wear snoods to cover their eyebrows are not extreme? Sensitivity is not halacha, and I disagree. No other area to self sacrifice? I self sacrifice for nidda every single month. I self sacrifice to keep shabbat and kosher properly because they are hard for me. Maybe those mitzvot are easy for you, but there are plenty for whole mitzvot are not easy. The reason people hate to hear about it is because it’s always men telling us that any tragedy that befalls a single community or the jews as a whole MUST be because of the lack of tzniut. It’s never because of the unscrupulous business men, or because of all of the men who are withholding gitten, or because of all of the men who are cheating on their wives.....no, it’s ALWAYS the women.
Women have 3 primary mitzvot, not just one- hafrashat challah, nidda, and hadlakat neirot. It was my understanding that none is more important than the other two.
Plenty of women feel embarrassed due to different aspects of nidda and Mikva. Plenty of women feel embarrassed when having to explain kosher. Plenty of women feel embarrassed when explaining why they are covering their hair. Plenty of women feel embarrassed when explaining why they won’t shake hands with a male colleague.
It is NOT easy for everyone to do chessed or to make challah. Maybe it’s easy for YOU. I have been married just about 15 years, and I don’t even want to think about making challah. Schar is in doing any mitzvah. We have no idea which mitzvot bring more schar. We are told that doing something that is hard for you brings more schar.

amother

Peach

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 11:01 pm

Modesty is the foundation of the Jewish religion and every jewish home. It is a mitzvah that affects a woman and every person around her. All men that see her are greatly affected. A woman wearing a burka might not be socially acceptable today but she is definitely dressing in the most modest fashion (I'm not saying one has to wear burkas to be modest but it's wrong to say that burkas are not very modest). Rav Shach ztl said decades ago in a fiery public speech that unfortunately muslims are winning over Jews in davening and tznius.
I was saying how in general the biggest yetzer hora for most women today is in the area of modesty. It is very very hard to downplay ones beauty outside, modesty today is not respected. The more modest a woman is the more she is usually disrespected and looked down on. The more levels she takes on, the more she is labeled "extreme".

Hashems shechina leaves us if we are not modest- as it says in Devarim, when there us immorality and immodesty in our midst Hashem exits. That is why a lack of tznius is always blamed for tragedies. We lose all our protection from Hashem when women are immodest.

Ema of 5

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 11:14 pm

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

I can not discuss tzniut with someone who thinks that a burka is the best way to dress, or that women and tzniut are really the root of all things.

amother

Peach

Sat, Apr 10 2021, 11:49 pm

I am not promoting wearing burkas- as I wrote women could be tznius without wearing burkas. But it shouldn't be disparaged the way it always is, everyone should just leave them alone (unless of course it's a cult where they are doing bad activities). What about women in Yerushalayim that wears shawls outside for tznius? Are they also extreme and crazy? Many have this tradition dating back hundreds of years.
Why is everyone allowed to judge those that are doing higher levels of modesty- but no one could ever say a word about women that are dressing immodestly- that everyone has to be careful with in case you sound judgemental. Even though the immodest woman is causing way more spiritual damage than a woman wearing a burka or a shawl!
My point is that tznius is such an important mitzvah and the yetzer hora knows this - so he made all women that are striving to go higher into "extremists" and "imbalanced"- they are so quick to be labeled

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Apr 11 2021, 12:08 am

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

I was answering Icebreakers question. She asked, "Striving for more, in terms of what?"

The discussion is about striving to be a better Jew, not just any area in life. The examples I gave were about striving to be better in avodas Hashem.
(I thought it was kind of obvious in context of this discussion.)

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Apr 11 2021, 12:12 am

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

The Burka cult has been disparaged by our greatest gedolim. They don't follow any gedolim or Rabbonim. That is why they are not admired and looked down on. They are misguided.