S/o fat shaming. Poll re size to see what average REALLY is

amother

Red

Wed, Apr 14 2021, 7:58 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I did look up just why stores avoided plus sizes. I don't think that means that I refuse to learn. It shed a lot of light on why a potentially lucrative business is getting ignored.
I don't believe that creating a safe space will mean better selection and service in stores because being aware or "woke" doesn't necessarily mean activism. If you feel better, though, go for it.

None of us had an issue with the articles. I feel like I explained it multiple times and at this point I'm just over it. I'm just sad to learn that I can be living among people who view me the way you do. I didn't need to see proof that such judgments actually exist and it's not just my imagination.

southernbubby

Wed, Apr 14 2021, 8:14 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

Why, because I don't think that overweight women look good in a bikini or because I think that businesses operate for profit rather than to serve the public? If it makes you feel better, I don't think that elderly women, even thin ones, look good in a bikini.

amother

Blue

Wed, Apr 14 2021, 8:33 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Why, because I don't think that overweight women look good in a bikini or because I think that businesses operate for profit rather than to serve the public?

No, not for either of the above answers. But for thinking that these may be the answers. This thread was a spin-off of the obesity and fat shaming thread. Where someone posted that she is tired of being shamed for being overweight. She specifically mentioned by doctors and by people in frum society in regards to COVID-19. Nothing was mentioned about frum stores. That post resonated with many of us who chimed in with our experiences.

Someone opened a spin off to see how many of us are wearing larger sizes (which according to many stores are from 16+ not size 24 or 28). This poll had a huge number of responses - I think its up to 615 right now. And some of us who wear larger sizes began a dialogue that was about our shared experiences. It felt validating. This was not about looking to blame anyone specifically. But about sharing our experiences - whether annoying, frustrating or deeply humiliating. And it felt good to be heard and understood.

This thread was not about technicalities or how can we improve the clothing industry or which stores might carry larger sizes or anything like that. It was about what 'I' and every other amother who chose to share has experienced.

When those experiences are completely invalidated and intellectualized by someone who does not share these struggles and blithely comments on how we can 'fix' this, that is a judgement coming through loud and clear.

That is why.

amother

Seafoam

Wed, Apr 14 2021, 8:41 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

southernbubby

Wed, Apr 14 2021, 10:31 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

What I don't understand why nobody is trying to solve the problem, unless there is no solution to the problem.
I do understand that people just want to vent and share experiences but if a store in Lakewood has a solution, maybe there is a way to share that success with stores in Monsey and Brooklyn.
I was overweight at one point but still wore straight sizes and the main frustration was trying to look good in anything. It's not that I can't relate at all but just not to the same extent. At that point I also was not living near frum clothing stores so I didn't have to deal with snide comments from salespeople.
My granddaughter, who I mentioned, is able to get things in stores but Asos has some stuff that can easily be made tznius so they buy from that site. Again, I realize that this is not about where to buy things but about how women feel when community stores are so unreceptive.

amother

Blue

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 12:15 am

southernbubby wrote:

I hear you. Sometimes people don’t necessarily want to problem solve. To me, this thread helped me feel part of a community. That there are other people who get it. And that I am not less than. And that I am not causing the problems that I am experiencing. I’m not necessarily looking right now what or who the cause of the problem is - it’s just extremely validating to know that I am not alone in this.

And making the solutions sound overly simplistic won’t actually help solve anything. But it does take the focus away from the sharing and acknowledgement that was happening.

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 12:57 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

I don't think that there are simple solutions but Zara now sells more sizes on their website due to a petition circulated by a Hispanic teenager. If the Monsey stores see Monsey shoppers making the 1.5 hour trip to Lakewood to shop at Periwinkle, maybe they will figure out how to stock more sizes.
After acknowledgement that there is a problem, shouldn't there be action?

amother

Brown

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 1:11 am

Terrible situation, thank you for the awareness. I was never really stick thin, in sem I was at my smallest ever at size 8. 10-12 was my normal size for most of my young life when I was fit and thin. How anyone could be size 2 was lost on me- if I was any smaller than 10-12, there's be nothing to me.
Twenty years later thanks to pregnancies and covid lockdown I'm a size 16-18. Chub all around and I don't look good. I'm only 5'2".
I've never shopped at Jewish stores ever since I was told at Junees that I'm an XXL and even those clothes looked bad on me. I was about size 12-14 then.
I mostly look on Amazon for clothing. When I find something that fits and flatters I buy every color, more than one. I wore the same black old navy skirt for years. Recently I found a flattering kosher casual skirt on amazon.
I can imagine how devastating this would be for a teen. My daughter is only eleven and not slim built. I will keep an extra eye out for her in this struggle.

EBY

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 2:50 am

To all the women on this thread who wear plus-size clothing and have shared their experience: Despite how exhausting it is to explain your experiences, and keep responding to this thread, you have certainly raised awareness, at least with one lurker.

I really had no perspective on how difficult shopping is for people of certain sizes, and I am so appreciative that you have put your time and energy into explaining it. I hope this will help me be more aware and sensitive.

I really hope things change. I hope stores you want to shop in start selling sizes and styles that you feel good wearing.

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 8:29 am

I commented the way I did because in the original thread about fat shaming, a poster, and maybe more than one, said that frum stores have an obligation to stock bigger sizes. I always question that line of thinking, probably because my own mother was so morbidly obese that it shortened her life by 20 years over what her mother lived and she always felt like the world rejected her over something that she couldn't help. At that point in time, being thin was tied to self control but that's not necessarily the train of thought anymore.
I also question the line of thinking that small businesses have the same obligation to be PC or inclusive as large chains do but maybe in the case of stores that rely on community support, they actually do. This poll was about just how large of the market share belongs to plus sizes. It was to try and demonstrate that there is a good reason for boutiques in the frum community to accommodate these customers.
I want to know if there is interest in 2 spin offs. One would be a discussion about how to get frum stores to stock a wider size range and the other would be a special forum within fashion and beauty for those who are plus size so that these challenges could be discussed openly within the group.

SixOfWands

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 8:40 am

southernbubby wrote:

Because the problem, identified in the articles you cite, and in your own posts, where you posit that larger women need different styles, isn't that the stores are not aware that there is a market for larger sized goods. Its that they believe that having larger-sized women wear their clothes tarnishes their brand; that if they sold a dress to size 14/16 me, and size 4 Frummie Fruma saw it, she would no longer want to shop in their store. To use the current poll numbers, they don't want to lose the 285 or so women wearing a size 10 or under, just to sell to the 133 16+.

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 9:16 am

SixOfWands wrote:

If you are interested in a spin off, we can talk about how advertising can be used to alter that perception.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 9:30 am

So this is what really bothers me.

SouthernBubby, you keep talking about size 24. I understand if a store would not want to stock these very high sizes, perhaps they feel that the demand would not be worth the bother.

But I stopped shopping in frum stores about 15 years ago after the birth of a baby. Why? I had gained weight (as we all do during pregnancy) and I was now a size 16 instead of the size 12 I was before I had gotten pregnant. I weighed a grand total of 155 pounds, really not very obese by any standards. But when I went shopping to find something to fit me, I had a selection of maybe two tops, total. Looking back after reading this thread, I realize now that I must have come at the end of the season (babies don't schedule themselves) and all the larger sizes had already been sold out. I wear a larger size then you would expect from my weight (I think) because I am larger on top (I am a DD).

I moved on to the non Jewish stores and never looked back, but it's kind of ironic that in order to dress tznius I have to shop in non Jewish stores because nothing in the frum stores fit me. (Is everyone in the frum world really a AA? seems so.).

I only thought about this recently because I keep hearing about trying to shop in frum stores - well, unless they start changing how they brand themselves, no, it's just not worth it for me to go through racks and racks of clothing to find ONE thing that fits me for a premium price, when I can buy something beautiful in a chain store for $20.

I did express myself to the stores about how I felt before I left - as I didn't think a size 16 is SO huge (and btw I was still a Medium in regular stores), but I guess they have enough business from all the size 6 teen agers that they don't need my business. Ok, you don't need my business, but then don't complain I don't shop in frum stores.

amother

Seafoam

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 9:40 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

The frum sizes are sized much smaller.
I wear an XL or L depends on the size in Macy's.
Frum stores 20/22.
That doesn't add up.
I think that adds to my frustration for myself and my daughter.
That stores only go up to 14 with a few "fat style" 16s thrown in for "inclusivity" but these aren't real 14, it's 10/M in the department stores.
So the few "fat stuff"- (and it's usually very swingy tops that make you feel like you're wearing a sign I'm Fat So Society Says I have to Wear these Gathers, Extra Flaps and Hanging Fabric to cover the Fat, but really it only advertises me as a FAT GIRL) is in actuality a real 14/L.

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 9:50 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Since straight sizes are sold by the wholesalers in packets with an assortment of sizes, wouldn't it follow that it's the same way in plus sizes?

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 9:54 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I no longer shop in frum stores either.

I've noticed that mainstream stores have really undergone a shift in the past 5-10 years re: inclusive sizing. You can more or less get the same styles in every size, and salespeople don't shame you or steer you towards shapeless (and unflattering) caftans. I hope this is an example of the frum world just being late to a trend (as it often is), and in a few years, the frum stores will stock a wider variety of sizes and ditch the attitude of plus-size individuals somehow being deficient.

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 10:42 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Because I like deals and bargains, I sometimes shop at Rainbow when I am in Brooklyn. I would estimate that half of the footage of each store is devoted to plus sizes and the plus size clothing is actually more fashionable than the straight size stuff.
Of course cheap fast fashion of any kind is practically made by slave labor and is harmful to the environment but someone who wants plus sizes on a budget will find that the plus department is definitely not an apologetic afterthought. There is some really worthwhile stuff there, at least according to my taste. (Yes, I know that if Bubby likes it, you won't wear it).
A lot of chain stores that sell plus sizes don't have much of a selection compared to straight sizes but Rainbow is truly equal.