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I miss going to Israel
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 2:20 pm
Bnei Berak 10 wrote:
"Extreme pressure"? Please. Some perspective is welcome
Having a bad day or just enjoy kvetching?

It's coming from a lot of different directions, not just Israel. But yes, "vaccinate or else you become a second-class citizen" is a form of extreme pressure. And guess what? The government WANTS that pressure. It's one of the ways they get more people to vaccinate.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 2:23 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
Thanks, that makes me feel really good.

(FTR, I have close to zero chance of exposure. Not everyone unvaccinated is a carrier. I understand although I don't like the rule, but your implication that I would deliberately put others at risk is unfair and misplaced.)

Once you've spent time in the airport and on a plane - and possibly in more than one airport and on more than one plane - that statement is no longer true.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 2:41 pm
amother [ Khaki ] wrote:
Once you've spent time in the airport and on a plane - and possibly in more than one airport and on more than one plane - that statement is no longer true.

Fair enough, though I'd be wearing a mask of course. Although I'd consider my risk to be not higher than someone vaccinated who can still be a carrier and probably has taken no precautions at all.

Again, I understand why they made the rule. I imagine that if I was in public health I might do the same.

On a personal level, though, I am unhappy about it and the position it puts me in, especially since I promised a child a trip to Israel that was pushed off for last summer, and of now is on indefinite hold.
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 2:49 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
It's coming from a lot of different directions, not just Israel. But yes, "vaccinate or else you become a second-class citizen" is a form of extreme pressure. And guess what? The government WANTS that pressure. It's one of the ways they get more people to vaccinate.

Again, please. Extreme pressure is sitting a hospital while a family member is fighting for his life due to covid.
I am not very happy with a lot of things the israeli government has handled covid but there is a choice. You can feel wronged and 2nd class or anything for that matter and it still won't get your anywhere. Time to grow up.
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Sesame




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 2:53 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
Thanks, that makes me feel really good.

(FTR, I have close to zero chance of exposure. Not everyone unvaccinated is a carrier. I understand although I don't like the rule, but your implication that I would deliberately put others at risk is unfair and misplaced.)

This isn’t something personal ya know. In the bigger scheme of things these precautions make sense. They’re not specifically against you, it’s a shame for anyone to take it personally.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 2:55 pm
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
Fair enough, though I'd be wearing a mask of course. Although I'd consider my risk to be not higher than someone vaccinated who can still be a carrier and probably has taken no precautions at all.

Again, I understand why they made the rule. I imagine that if I was in public health I might do the same.

On a personal level, though, I am unhappy about it and the position it puts me in, especially since I promised a child a trip to Israel that was pushed off for last summer, and of now is on indefinite hold.

Your mask protects others from your germs. It does not prevent you from becoming infected by someone else's germs.

Everyone, vaccinated or not, is required to wear a mask here.

I agree with you: on a personal level it is very frustrating. On a public health level it makes sense and is the right thing to do.
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 2:56 pm
[quote="amother [ Tangerine ]
On a personal level, though, I am unhappy about it and the position it puts me in, especially since I promised a child a trip to Israel that was pushed off for last summer, and of now is on indefinite hold.[/quote]
Out of your control. Sh-t happens. This too shall pass.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 2:57 pm
Sesame wrote:
This isn’t something personal ya know. In the bigger scheme of things these precautions make sense. They’re not specifically against you, it’s a shame for anyone to take it personally.

It's not against her, but I understand her.

There are many rules that on a personal level make no sense, but since you can't control for all the various factors in every single person's life, you need to draw the line where it makes the most sense. So some people end up with the short end of the stick, and it's very frustrating, especially if you have done everything right, to get the short end of the stick.

It's not personal, it's about protecting public health. It's still frustrating.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 2:57 pm
amother [ Khaki ] wrote:
Yes and no. Only first-degree family members of Israelis are permitted to enter the country right now. For them - they are special pre-approved cases, and it requires paperwork from both sides - vaccination status doesn't matter, but they do need to test and quarantine.

However, they are not the ones helping the economy, for the most part.

Non-Israelis who do not have first-degree relatives who are Israeli citizens living in Israel are not currently permitted to enter the country. On May 23, they will be allowed to do so - IF they are both part of an organized group AND vaccinated, and they will still be required to test for corona prior to boarding the plane AND upon landing, and do a serology test upon landing.

Non-vaccinated non-Israelis who don't have first-degree relatives in Israel are not currently allowed to enter the country. Which suits us Israelis perfectly well, honestly.


Apologies for the error. I was looking into this with a friend whose child is serving in the IDF, so I may have glossed over that.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 3:38 pm
Bnei Berak 10 wrote:
Again, please. Extreme pressure is sitting a hospital while a family member is fighting for his life due to covid.
I am not very happy with a lot of things the israeli government has handled covid but there is a choice. You can feel wronged and 2nd class or anything for that matter and it still won't get your anywhere. Time to grow up.

No, extreme pressure is lying deathly ill in the hospital, having killed hundreds because of your irresponsibility, while being bankrupt and attacked by the mafia and all of your family blaming you for it. And let's add in a court case, rude nurses, and weeping sores for good measure. (/sarcasm)

It's okay for multiple people on multiple levels to feel pain or distress. One doesn't take away from the other. I wasn't claiming that my frustration is the highest level extant, or that nobody else is suffering because I have this problem.

I find it very condescending to tell me to "grow up" when you really have no idea who I am or what I'm doing. I'm allowed to be upset. I'm not going to protest in front of the embassy, forge vaccination records, or throw a tantrum. I still feel (and resent) a strong pressure to vaccinate when I don't feel comfortable doing so yet.
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 3:55 pm
You have the prerogative to miss going to Israel, but they aren't required to take you in.

I LIVE in Israel, but since we are here on Visas, we were locked out for a few months when the airport closed.

And returning was dependent on promising to quarantine for 14 days upon arrival, which I somehow doubt you would be willing to do even if they would allow you to come in with your unvaccinated status.

While I do understand your yearning to come, you're pretty low on their priority list at the moment. They don't have any obligations to you.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 4:54 pm
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
You have the prerogative to miss going to Israel, but they aren't required to take you in.

I LIVE in Israel, but since we are here on Visas, we were locked out for a few months when the airport closed.

And returning was dependent on promising to quarantine for 14 days upon arrival, which I somehow doubt you would be willing to do even if they would allow you to come in with your unvaccinated status.

While I do understand your yearning to come, you're pretty low on their priority list at the moment. They don't have any obligations to you.

I reiterate, I DON'T think they have a requirement to take me in. But I don't appreciate being told "we wouldn't want you anyhow" or "grow up, you're so babyish for missing Israel."

If quarantine was a requirement, I absolutely would do it. Maybe a little Dan L'kaf Zchus? I'd probably time it so DC can attend school for that time (I work remotely anyhow) and then tour after quarantine ended. It just makes it harder on DH if I'm gone for that long.
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 10:51 pm
We can always hope to test positive for antibodies. My daughter just tested positive for antibodies and that gives me hope. I’ll test myself also. I am pretty sure I had carona but previously no antibodies, now we just recovered from something, maybe we’ll get lucky.
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Teomima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 12:06 am
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
I still feel (and resent) a strong pressure to vaccinate when I don't feel comfortable doing so yet.

Nobody is pressuring you to vaccinate! Let's say you wanted to go into a restaurant that had a formal dress code. Do you resent the restaurant for having to wear a nice dress? If you don't want to dress up, that's fine, go to a different restaurant instead! No biggie. It's one thing if you were invited to a white tie wedding, then yes I could understand feeling resentful for having to dress up if you didn't want to. In that second scenario there is pressure to dress up to attend an event to which you were invited. But Israel isn't a white tie wedding. You are the one who wants to come here, so the restaurant analogy is more accurate than the wedding analogy.

If you don't feel comfortable vaccinating, that's totally fine! No one is pressuring you to vaccinate because no one is pressuring you to come to Israel. Come, don't come. It's entirely up to you.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 1:37 am
Teomima wrote:
Nobody is pressuring you to vaccinate! Let's say you wanted to go into a restaurant that had a formal dress code. Do you resent the restaurant for having to wear a nice dress? If you don't want to dress up, that's fine, go to a different restaurant instead! No biggie. It's one thing if you were invited to a white tie wedding, then yes I could understand feeling resentful for having to dress up if you didn't want to. In that second scenario there is pressure to dress up to attend an event to which you were invited. But Israel isn't a white tie wedding. You are the one who wants to come here, so the restaurant analogy is more accurate than the wedding analogy.

If you don't feel comfortable vaccinating, that's totally fine! No one is pressuring you to vaccinate because no one is pressuring you to come to Israel. Come, don't come. It's entirely up to you.


I don't know.
Not sure I agree with the analogy.
If OP wanted to go to any other country as a tourist it would be apt.
But I don't see Israel as just one of many equivalent restaurants that OP could choose from.
I kind of think that for Jews, Israel davka is that white tie wedding that you were invited to or maybe more like a timeshare hotel to which members are temporarily being denied access even though home owners in the same area (Israeli citizens) are being allowed in.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 1:50 am
etky wrote:
I don't know.
Not sure I agree with the analogy.
If OP wanted to go to any other country as a tourist it would be apt.
But I don't see Israel as just one of many equivalent restaurants that OP could choose from.
I kind of think that for Jews, Israel davka is that white tie wedding that you were invited to or maybe more like a timeshare hotel to which members are temporarily being denied access even though home owners in the same area (Israeli citizens) are being allowed in.

I disagree.

First of all, many tourists of all stripes want to come to Israel. In fact, we get more Christian tourists than Jewish ones. So how would this policy work? Jewish tourists don't have to vaccinate but Christian ones do? That's not a reasonable policy.

The covid virus doesn't care either way. Unvaccinated Jews who are yearning for their ancestral homeland (for a 2-week vacation anyway) are just as likely as unvaccinated Jews who are coming here to enjoy the Tel Aviv beaches, or as Christians who want to walk in the footsteps of Yoshke, etc. to transmit covid to others. All should have to follow the same protocols.
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Teomima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 1:53 am
etky wrote:
I don't know.
Not sure I agree with the analogy.
If OP wanted to go to any other country as a tourist it would be apt.
But I don't see Israel as just one of many equivalent restaurants that OP could choose from.
I kind of think that for Jews, Israel davka is that white tie wedding that you were invited to or maybe more like a timeshare hotel to which members are temporarily being denied access even though home owners in the same area (Israeli citizens) are being allowed in.

I disagree. I'm glad Jews around the world feel a strong connection to Israel, but that doesn't automatically entitle them to visit whenever they want. Yes it's a wedding they're invited to as far as any Jew is more than welcome to make aliyah (and once you do, you see how jeans are often a perfectly acceptable dress code to a wedding) but being Jewish doesn't automatically entitle you to visit Israel wherever you please. So if you choose to visit, there are certain requirements. Thus the restaurant analogy.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 1:54 am
DrMom wrote:
I disagree.

First of all, many tourists of all stripes want to come to Israel. In fact, we get more Christian tourists than Jewish ones. So how would this policy work? Jewish tourists don't have to vaccinate but Christian ones do? That's not a reasonable policy.

The covid virus doesn't care either way. Unvaccinated Jews who are yearning for their ancestral homeland (for a 2-week vacation anyway) are just as likely as unvaccinated Jews who are coming here to enjoy the Tel Aviv beaches, or as Christians who want to walk in the footsteps of Yoshke, etc. to transmit covid to others. All should have to follow the same protocols.

Again (for the tenth time), I did NOT say that they need to change the protocols. I even said that if I were in public health I might make the same decisions they did.

BUT it does still feel like extreme pressure to vaccinate if I want to go to Israel, and as a Jew a trip to Israel is not just a vacation.

I may understand intellectually that "right of return" does not necessarily equal "right to visit," but I still am sad about being in this position.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 1:57 am
DrMom wrote:
I disagree.

First of all, many tourists of all stripes want to come to Israel. In fact, we get more Christian tourists than Jewish ones. So how would this policy work? Jewish tourists don't have to vaccinate but Christian ones do? That's not a reasonable policy.

The covid virus doesn't care either way. Unvaccinated Jews who are yearning for their ancestral homeland (for a 2-week vacation anyway) are just as likely as unvaccinated Jews who are coming here to enjoy the Tel Aviv beaches, or as Christians who want to walk in the footsteps of Yoshke, etc. to transmit covid to others. All should have to follow the same protocols.


I'm in no way advocating for a change in policy.
Just explaining that I get why OP and other Jews who can't come here right now might feel upset.
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amother
Lime


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 2:05 am
amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:
Again (for the tenth time), I did NOT say that they need to change the protocols. I even said that if I were in public health I might make the same decisions they did.

BUT it does still feel like extreme pressure to vaccinate if I want to go to Israel, and as a Jew a trip to Israel is not just a vacation.

I may understand intellectually that "right of return" does not necessarily equal "right to visit," but I still am sad about being in this position.


For a long time, you could just pop in and visit an independent Jewish state whenever you wanted - a privilege your ancestors never knew. Today's the day to thank Hashem for that and to daven for good things in the future.
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