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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 5:10 pm
I'm so excited to start learning מסכת יומא! And as my friend said, it's nice to return to the familiarity of the Bavli, and amazing to realise we've learned enough that the Bavli feels familiar. BH! Looking forward to sharing questions and insights with you all. (Sorry I'm a day late with the start of the thread.)
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 5:17 pm
Daf 2

What is so terrible about the opinion that a טבול יום may not prepare the ashes of the פרה אדומה that we go to such extreme lengths to reject it? Is it only because of who proposes it - the צדוקים or is there something inherently problematic in it? (More problematic than a regular rejected viewpoint of one of the חכמים.)

And if simply because proposed by the צדוקים - shouldn't one be able to assess a viewpoint without reference to who espouses it? (A regular argument used on this site to support the use of amother for non-personal information.)
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 14 2021, 5:22 pm
An idea that popped into my mind - would love to know if any מפרשים discuss this.

The Gemara makes a halachic comparison between the inauguration of the Mishkan and the service on Yom Kippur - they both require the cohen to be separated from his wife for the 7 days preceding the event.

A thought.
Nadav and Avihu died at the inauguration of the Mishkan because they brought אש זרה. Different interpretations as to what exactly that was, but in any case they acted on their own initiative to do something they believed was positive, but was the wrong thing to do.
Could that possibly be seen as foreshadowing the almost-yearly deaths of כהנים גדולים during the period of the 2nd בית המקדש who carried out the incense service (אש) in the way they (as צדוקים) believed to be correct, yet was contrary to the opinion of the חכמים?

Interested in your thoughts.

ETA amazing that we just read about the inauguration of the Mishkan in last week's parsha and this coming week is the עבודה of Yom Kippur.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:12 pm
Edit please

Last edited by naturalmom5 on Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:11 pm
Yoma 2

The Tosfos Yeshanim1 ask according to Rabi Yehudah, who says that a substitute wife must be prepared for the Kohen Gadol in case his first
wife dies, why we do not also prepare a substitute wife for the second kohen (who we have ready in case the present Kohen Gadol becomes dis- qualified from doing the Avodah)? Two answers are given: Originally they say the need for the Kohen Gadol to have a wife is not crucial, and so, they only made a provision for the first Kohen, but not the second. Then they wrote, even if we say it is crucial for the Kohen Gadol to be married, nev- ertheless, we do not have to be concerned that as well as the first Kohen becoming disqualified, that the wife of the substitute Kohen Gadol will die. It turns out the Tosfos Yeshanim are in doubt whether it is crucial for his Avodah that the Kohen Gadol be married.
Tosfos HaRosh however write that it is not crucial for the Kohen Gadol to have a wife, and Rabi Yehudah who says that we prepare a substitute wife for him, this is only because lechatchilah it is correct for him to have one.
But, the Rambam in Hilchos Yom Hakippurim2 writes that the fifteen animals offered on Yom Kippur are only brought by the Kohen Gadol, and the other parts of the Avodah, like the incense and the lighting the Meno- rah, were all done by a Kohen Gadol who was married, as it is written, “And he shall atone for himself and his household,” which refers to his wife. The Ohr Same’ach3 infers from the Rambam that it is crucial for the Avodah that the Kohen Gadol be married. This makes sense, he writes, since the Torah writes several times that he must atone for himself and his household. Similarly, the Minchas Chinuch4 writes that if the Kohen Gadol is not married this disqualifies his Avodah.
Nevertheless, the Siach Yitzchak5 writes that since the Rambam says it in two phases, firstly, that all fifteen animals offered on Yom Kippur are only done by the Kohen Gadol, and then, this is all done by a married Kohen Gadol, this implies that only the service being done by the Kohen Gadol is crucial, but not his being married.
The sefer Gevuros Ari is in doubt if the necessity for the Kohen Gadol to be married disqualifies the Avodah bedieved or not. He brings proofs both ways, and ends up proving that being married is crucial, since the Gemara explains that the substitute kohen who is prepared in case the first is disqualified is not separated from his house prior to Yom Kippur, as this is not crucial. Thus, as far as covering all eventualities we only do what is crucial, and since according to Rabi Yehudah we prepare an extra wife for him, this proves that his being married is crucial. [1]
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Apr 19 2021, 8:12 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
Yoma 2

The Tosfos Yeshanim1 ask according to Rabi Yehudah, who says that a substitute wife must be prepared for the Kohen Gadol in case his first
wife dies, why we do not also prepare a substitute wife for the second kohen (who we have ready in case the present Kohen Gadol becomes dis- qualified from doing the Avodah)? Two answers are given: Originally they say the need for the Kohen Gadol to have a wife is not crucial, and so, they only made a provision for the first Kohen, but not the second. Then they wrote, even if we say it is crucial for the Kohen Gadol to be married, nev- ertheless, we do not have to be concerned that as well as the first Kohen becoming disqualified, that the wife of the substitute Kohen Gadol will die. It turns out the Tosfos Yeshanim are in doubt whether it is crucial for his Avodah that the Kohen Gadol be married.
Tosfos HaRosh however write that it is not crucial for the Kohen Gadol to have a wife, and Rabi Yehudah who says that we prepare a substitute wife for him, this is only because lechatchilah it is correct for him to have one.
But, the Rambam in Hilchos Yom Hakippurim2 writes that the fifteen animals offered on Yom Kippur are only brought by the Kohen Gadol, and the other parts of the Avodah, like the incense and the lighting the Meno- rah, were all done by a Kohen Gadol who was married, as it is written, “And he shall atone for himself and his household,” which refers to his wife. The Ohr Same’ach3 infers from the Rambam that it is crucial for the Avodah that the Kohen Gadol be married. This makes sense, he writes, since the Torah writes several times that he must atone for himself and his household. Similarly, the Minchas Chinuch4 writes that if the Kohen Gadol is not married this disqualifies his Avodah.
Nevertheless, the Siach Yitzchak5 writes that since the Rambam says it in two phases, firstly, that all fifteen animals offered on Yom Kippur are only done by the Kohen Gadol, and then, this is all done by a married Kohen Gadol, this implies that only the service being done by the Kohen Gadol is crucial, but not his being married.
The sefer Gevuros Ari is in doubt if the necessity for the Kohen Gadol to be married disqualifies the Avodah bedieved or not. He brings proofs both ways, and ends up proving that being married is crucial, since the Gemara explains that the substitute kohen who is prepared in case the first is disqualified is not separated from his house prior to Yom Kippur, as this is not crucial. Thus, as far as covering all eventualities we only do what is crucial, and since according to Rabi Yehudah we prepare an extra wife for him, this proves that his being married is crucial. [1]


R Rosner quoted R Kook as saying that since the tafkid of the cohen gadol on YK is to completely giving himself over to the people (I didn't fully understand this), he needs to be married, as marriage is the prototype giving relationship.
It's the only post that has a requirement of being married. A judge needs to have children, but not doesn't have to be currently married.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Apr 19 2021, 8:13 am
Yoma 8

Pre-fixed calendar, YK could fall out on Sunday and day 7 of the separation period would fall on Shabbat. What would they do about the sprinkling in that case? - you can't skip day 7.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Apr 19 2021, 8:15 am
Yoma 7

טומאה הותרה/דחויה בציבור

I know we had this exact discussion in פסחים! It would be really interesting to compare the two gemaras side by side.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Apr 19 2021, 8:23 am
HELP WANTED

Amother Plum (I'll call you by the last iteration of your name, since it's the one you liked best and you haven't posted on this thread yet) or anyone else -

Yesterday I had 2 things tickle my memory in a "we learned this in the daf" sense, but I've not been successful in locating them. It's enough to make me reconsider my decision to give up on Zichru. In fact I felt quite upset, like I'm learning too much and it's becoming a mishkebobble in my mind. Can anyone (daf learner or other learner) help me locate the sources for the following?

1) When witnesses come to testify about the new moon, even after the first pair of witnesses have been interrogated and their testimony accepted, Sanhedrin question each pair of witnesses, in order that no one will feel they made the effort for no reason and won't bother to come in future.

2) אין חותמין בשניים but we do say מקדש השבת וישראל והזמנים. We say that מקדש ישראל והזמנים is the same topic because we determine the date of the מועדות through קידוש החודש, but what's the reason that we can include שבת which has intrinsic קדושה non-dependent on us? (I think this may have been mentioned by R Rosner when it came up in the last chapter of Pesachim, because I looked up the Gemara, and the general topic is there but the Gemara (as far as I could see, I may have missed it) doesn't address this exact question.

I will be so grateful to anyone who can help with these!
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Apr 20 2021, 2:01 am
Lol ....well yoma 9 was very interesting, especially the agadita

We have discussed it numerous times here

Particularly the story of the eye make up...
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Apr 20 2021, 2:04 am
Aylat wrote:
HELP WANTED

Amother Plum (I'll call you by the last iteration of your name, since it's the one you liked best and you haven't posted on this thread yet) or anyone else -

Yesterday I had 2 things tickle my memory in a "we learned this in the daf" sense, but I've not been successful in locating them. It's enough to make me reconsider my decision to give up on Zichru. In fact I felt quite upset, like I'm learning too much and it's becoming a mishkebobble in my mind. Can anyone (daf learner or other learner) help me locate the sources for the following?

1) When witnesses come to testify about the new moon, even after the first pair of witnesses have been interrogated and their testimony accepted, Sanhedrin question each pair of witnesses, in order that no one will feel they made the effort for no reason and won't bother to come in future.

2) אין חותמין בשניים but we do say מקדש השבת וישראל והזמנים. We say that מקדש ישראל והזמנים is the same topic because we determine the date of the מועדות through קידוש החודש, but what's the reason that we can include שבת which has intrinsic קדושה non-dependent on us? (I think this may have been mentioned by R Rosner when it came up in the last chapter of Pesachim, because I looked up the Gemara, and the general topic is there but the Gemara (as far as I could see, I may have missed it) doesn't address this exact question.

I will be so grateful to anyone who can help with these!




1... I BELIEVE IS IN ru bais din RH 3rd perek

2... beitza I think
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Apr 20 2021, 3:42 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
1... I BELIEVE IS IN ru bais din RH 3rd perek

2... beitza I think


Thank you very much!

1) What is ru bais din? Not sure where to look. Typo?

2) I did a bit more research - the bracha מקדש השבת וישראל והזמנים is discussed in a few places - ביצה יז, פסחים קיז - but bH I found the place where the question I had is discussed: ברכות מט א.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Apr 20 2021, 9:52 am
Aylat wrote:
Thank you very much!

1) What is ru bais din? Not sure where to look. Typo?

2) I did a bit more research - the bracha מקדש השבת וישראל והזמנים is discussed in a few places - ביצה יז, פסחים קיז - but bH I found the place where the question I had is discussed: ברכות מט א.


https://www.dafyomi.org/index......go=Go
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 28 2021, 2:56 am
WHAT IS HAPPENING.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 28 2021, 5:04 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
WHAT IS HAPPENING.


We're trying figure out who the author of a certain mishna (or braita?) is [spoiler: R Eliezer ben Yaakov] and how to resolve a contradiction with a mishna in Midot. Along the way we mention that the cohen preparing the para aduma has to be able to see into the door of the ulam (or heichal?) all the way from Har Hazeitim. Controversy: did he see over the top of the wall or through the doorway into the azarah? Is there an extra step in the middle of the azarah raising it by an amah (and a half?). Lots of measurements - where exactly is the mizbeiach?

Today we're discussing another apparent contradiction with a mishna in Tamid. Where is the room they kept the sheep ready for the Tamid offering? What shape was the room? From which perspective is the Tanna describing it - from the direction of the azarah or entering from outside? Does one always have to walk counter-clockwise (turn right) in the Bet Hamikdash, or only when in the process of performing an avoda?

Ok, off the top of my head (and a tiny peek at a summary) that's what's been happening. More than that I am unable to tell you at present. That's the extent of my understanding.

Or are you referring to something else? (Have I missed some exciting aggadata somewhere??)
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 28 2021, 5:06 pm
Do you listen to R' Rosner's shiur? I liked what he said about the Maharal Diskin, the guy being pursued by the mafia, and learning masechet Middot.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Apr 28 2021, 5:10 pm
There's helpful illustrations on פורטל דף היומי.
Can I attach pdfs here?
I get them through the whatsapp list/app, had a quick look at the website now but can't find the right link.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 29 2021, 5:01 pm
Daf 18

I was disappointed that R Rosner focused strictly on the halachic aspect of מכריז מאן הויא ליומא and not at all on the hashkafic or psychological issues. Though the Gemara focused mainly on the halachic aspect, he often brings related ideas or discusses the wider implications, and he didn't here.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Apr 29 2021, 6:58 pm
Hellooooo

He didnt want to get lynched

R Eli from 8 minute daf , said who wants to marry me for a day is a good way to commit suicide Very Happy
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