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Different parenting
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avrahamama




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:44 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm just letting out all of my concerns. I feel like I have this big fear now that they're getting so much older. Did I do a good job? Is he a responsible, kind, frum, erlich adult? Will he learn? Will he have a relationship with Hashem?

I try to be not-strict, yet firm. Set boundaries and limits. Instill love for Torah. And yet it feels like I wasn't strict enough, and now it's too late, because they've swung way to the left. And my husband is upset about it too, but he's never home so who cares, and also stop getting mad at the kids instead just take them out for coffee. Argh!


BZH it will all work out and you will eventually have nachat.

I didn't grow up with much money and my DH and I aren't making much now either. So when I read that your son has a credit card and uses it whenever he wants it's hard for me to understand or relate.

I had a pair of booty shorts my mother hated. They were white and just soooooo inappropriate. She would throw them out and I would dig them out of the trash lol. The one thing we did kind of agree on is that there is a time and place for the different styles of clothing I wore.

But I don't know if you can realistically discuss fashion and attire with a teenager. I know very few teens that have the kli for that. Maybe just make sure he has a few appropriate outfits for specific situations. And put a limit on the cc!!!

Start with real live voice calls and then let him know that eventually there will be times that a quick text will work out. Anyway we all need to learn how to talk on the phone lol.

Your husband has a point that going for a coffee with them might work better than yelling. When you tell you're only projecting your fears and anxieties on them but you're not necessarily teaching them much. I was once yelling at my son he was 10 and he said "imma why are you telling?" And I answered "because I'm so scared that I'm not doing a good job as your mom" he was shocked but he appreciated it do much and it opened up a conversation. It wasn't his fault I was yelling, it was my fears amplified in my head. He was so relieved to know it wasn't his fault. Now we go for walks together or I've pulled him out of school for a. Occasional lunch. He's started to understand that as his mom I want to have a relationship with him that is based on helping grow and reach his potential.

You and your husband could use some time alone to shmooze also. And maybe he can take the teens to a few parlor meetings or whatever so they can see what a life of chessed and responsibilities looks like.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:50 pm
Kids aren’t modeling clay nor a scientific formula. You do your best as a parent and the rest isn’t up to you. Trying to control everyone around you will drive them away and give you an ulcer.
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amother
Cobalt


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:53 pm
OP, I have a weird thought:
how about hiding in a closet one day before he comes home? Or hide out in an airbnb.

see how long it takes for them to start looking for you.

just kidding.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:17 pm
Zehava wrote:
Yeah parenting isn’t a marriage where you give and he needs to give back


I love you, Zehava. It's like I can't even take this seriously because I feel like this is coming from outer space. I'm not asking this kid to get a job and contribute to the household. I'm asking this kid for basic courtesy.

Let me ask you something, Zehava. I'm really curious. If you raise your child in a way that clearly shows that there are no expectations for your child's behavior, or that all expectations must be clearly agreed upon, what kind of husband/wife will that produce?

For example. If I say that my child can be as messy as they want, because s/he doesn't need to give back and help me keep the house neat, and this is a sticking point because the child hates making a bed or cleaning their room and we keep fighting about it, what happens when they're grown up? What happens to that wife who witnesses a husband throw underwear on the floor, leave coffee cups lying everywhere, and refuse to clear a shabbos table?

What you might be saying is that children will eventually learn by example, but no expectations can be set, is that working out for you? Maybe it is, maybe I'm totally wrong about this.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:27 pm
amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

The part I feel has the most impact on the kids is the putting down of your perspective and requests. I think that children learn how a parent is to be listened to to a large degree by the actions of each parent toward the other. Once they see a parents concerns being poo pooed by the other parent, its a matter of time and age until they do the same.

................

I would consider addressing it directly with your son, if you have not yet. By directly I mean sitting down with some tea and saying "look, you are older now, but I will always be a mom, and here is what I am asking you to do, out of love and respect." And then have an open discussion about it. I also don't think there is anything wrong with acknowledging that dh acts differently. But dad is your dh, and he is your child.


Yes! You know what I'm saying! My older son is naturally respectful, but my younger son especially sees how little my husband cares for my house rules and really really pushes the boundaries.

I love what you said about sitting down with some tea, etc. I'm going to try that!
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:30 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I love you, Zehava. It's like I can't even take this seriously because I feel like this is coming from outer space. I'm not asking this kid to get a job and contribute to the household. I'm asking this kid for basic courtesy.

Let me ask you something, Zehava. I'm really curious. If you raise your child in a way that clearly shows that there are no expectations for your child's behavior, or that all expectations must be clearly agreed upon, what kind of husband/wife will that produce?

For example. If I say that my child can be as messy as they want, because s/he doesn't need to give back and help me keep the house neat, and this is a sticking point because the child hates making a bed or cleaning their room and we keep fighting about it, what happens when they're grown up? What happens to that wife who witnesses a husband throw underwear on the floor, leave coffee cups lying everywhere, and refuse to clear a shabbos table?

What you might be saying is that children will eventually learn by example, but no expectations can be set, is that working out for you? Maybe it is, maybe I'm totally wrong about this.

You are totally wrong about this in so many ways.
You’re making it about you. It’s not about you at all. A parent-child relationship isn’t a give and take. It’s give give give.
Your kid isn’t supposed to be making her bed or keeping her room neat as an obligation to you. Your son doesn’t need to tell you where he is at all times as payback for getting him a car.
Your job as a parent is to connect with your child because that is the foundation of their emotional health. Emotional health is what makes a healthy marriage. Connection is what allows you to do your other job as a parent, which is to teach. Not force, teach.
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:37 pm
I don't see control. I see free reign with giving him your cc, a car, which gives him total independence & no accountability & then you expect him to ask permission or control his comings & goings. He is confused. He was given the tools to spend & go how he wishes.
A better option would be giving him an allowance & letting him spend that how he wants. That way he has independence with a budgeted limit or if he earns on his own.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:41 pm
Zehava wrote:
Op why the need to always be in control? What will happen if you don’t know where your husband or grown son are at a given moment? What are you afraid of?


Zehava, I'm sorry, this is really an inappropriate response to the poster. She is asking for legitimate advice on how to raise a son who is corteous and let's his parents know where he'll be, and when he'll be home. She did not ask you for a psychoanalysis of her as overly controlling.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:42 pm
Zehava wrote:
You are totally wrong about this in so many ways.
You’re making it about you. It’s not about you at all. A parent-child relationship isn’t a give and take. It’s give give give.
Your kid isn’t supposed to be making her bed or keeping her room neat as an obligation to you. Your son doesn’t need to tell you where he is at all times as payback for getting him a car.
Your job as a parent is to connect with your child because that is the foundation of their emotional health. Emotional health is what makes a healthy marriage. Connection is what allows you to do your other job as a parent, which is to teach. Not force, teach.


No, a relationship is a give and take. If a parent just gives, gives, gives, without expecting basic mentchlichkeit in return from a child, the child will develop unhealthy expectations in all relationships.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:53 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
No, a relationship is a give and take. If a parent just gives, gives, gives, without expecting basic mentchlichkeit in return from a child, the child will develop unhealthy expectations in all relationships.

Wrong. When a parent only gives conditional love the child will seek to fill that void in future relationships, therefor developing unhealthy relationships.
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ssspectacular




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:57 pm
[quote="Zehava"]Wrong. When a parent only gives conditional love the child will seek to fill that void in future relationships, therefor developing unhealthy relationships.[
/quote]
Something is missing in this explanation. Yes, parents should give unconditional love. But there should be basic respect for each other in the house. This has nothing to do with love. This is a basic part of belonging to a family-letting people know where you are (generally) and pitching in to the running of the home.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 6:05 pm
amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:
First, I want to validate your frustration OP. I would also have a hard time dealing with what you're dealing with.


Thank you so much!


amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:
With older kids, I don't think it's realistic usually to impose new rules as a matter of principle if they haven't been raised that way. But I think you could brainstorm a few concrete ways to improve communication and then have a conversation with your husband and with kids individually about trying to establish a few new routines (rather than rules per se).
.


Interesting perspective. I had a huge break between my oldest and my next child (illness and infertility), so it's kinda sprung on me all of a sudden. Suddenly I have a child who's driving and on his own and I feel like maybe it should have been a discussion before, but it doesn't seem too late to have one now?
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 6:06 pm
[quote="ssspectacular"]
Zehava wrote:
Wrong. When a parent only gives conditional love the child will seek to fill that void in future relationships, therefor developing unhealthy relationships.[
/quote]
Something is missing in this explanation. Yes, parents should give unconditional love. But there should be basic respect for each other in the house. This has nothing to do with love. This is a basic part of belonging to a family-letting people know where you are (generally) and pitching in to the running of the home.

The problem is not in the specific expectations or rules. It’s in the underlying reason for them.
Op has these expectations because she thinks her kids owe it to her, to give back to her because she gives to them.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 6:06 pm
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
Op I so relate to the older teen doing their own thing as if there's no-one in world they need to answer to!!! I'm following the topic. Hope we all get massive Siyatta Dishmaya in this and ALL areas!!!!


OMG, thanks! I feel like everyone else has this incredibly close relationship with their kids and I somehow raised my kid to be this independent kid who doesn't tell me anything!

Thanks for understanding.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 6:09 pm
amother [ Ivory ] wrote:
I don’t see control here. I think that the kids are getting mixed messages. It’s common courtesy to give those living with you a basic outline of your schedule. I don’t think it’s right for a husband to just not show up knowing his wife prepared hot dinner and is waiting for him. In the age of cell phones a quick text I’ll be late tonight eat without me is menchlichkeit. I think there is a lack of respect from your husband and your kids are copying it. What I don’t get is if your husband saw this is a super important thing to you why can’t he just send basic texts? He doesn’t have to give his exact gps location or what exactly he’s doing but updates on his schedule are 100% normal in any relationship. Sorry that some people here don’t get it.


It's one of those things that I just think will never change with my husband. And like Zehava says, I have trust that he's not doing anything wrong, he just doesn't think that I need to know where he is. It's fine. But I feel like with kids, especially with teenage boys, I can't just abandon all parental responsibility here. I have to keep him safe, and part of that means he has to tell me where he is.

And I also have to make him realize that there are other people to answer to.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 6:12 pm
dankbar wrote:
I don't see control. I see free reign with giving him your cc, a car, which gives him total independence & no accountability & then you expect him to ask permission or control his comings & goings. He is confused. He was given the tools to spend & go how he wishes.
A better option would be giving him an allowance & letting him spend that how he wants. That way he has independence with a budgeted limit or if he earns on his own.


Right?? Do you think we've given him too much free reign?? I worry about this, too.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 6:14 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Zehava, I'm sorry, this is really an inappropriate response to the poster. She is asking for legitimate advice on how to raise a son who is corteous and let's his parents know where he'll be, and when he'll be home. She did not ask you for a psychoanalysis of her as overly controlling.


It's fine, I don't mind. It's hilarious because I see myself as way too permissive about items that literally no one in my circles allows, so to find out I'm apparently hugely controlling isn't all that concerning.

I mean, it's possible I'm a huge control freak and I never realized, but if I try to really search myself and see if it's true, I just start laughing. It just doesn't feel right.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 6:23 pm
Zehava wrote:
Wrong. When a parent only gives conditional love the child will seek to fill that void in future relationships, therefor developing unhealthy relationships.


Interesting perspective. What do you mean by conditional love?

For me, unconditional love is a state of being. To give an example, if I had a child who was developmentally disabled, I'd love that child no matter what. (I had to deal with this a lot during fertility treatments). But that doesn't mean I wouldn't try as hard as I could to make that child function as best as he or she could in the world. It doesn't mean I don't love them, it means I'm giving them the tools to have good relationships and survive.

Maybe my insistence on my child checking in with me or using my money to buy things I approve of are wrong. It's possible. But in this way, I'm trying to show him that some behaviors are just wrong. I'm probably going about it in the absolute wrong way, I'll give you that. It should be preventative, not reactionary, as someone else said.

But I don't think it's wrong to tell a child that you want things a certain way. It doesn't negate my love for them. I didn't kick them out of the house and break all ties. I'm saying that these are my house rules.
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amother
DarkRed


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 6:24 pm
Zehava wrote:
Yeah parenting isn’t a marriage where you give and he needs to give back


Maybe it isn’t a marriage yet, but kids who grow up without accountability, responsibility and appreciation, make terrible spouses.


Last edited by amother on Mon, Dec 20 2021, 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
DarkRed


 

Post Thu, Apr 15 2021, 6:29 pm
Zehava wrote:
The problem is not in the specific expectations or rules. It’s in the underlying reason for them.
Op has these expectations because she thinks her kids owe it to her, to give back to her because she gives to them.


I didn’t see OP having expectations because they’re owed.
I see her having expectations so they grow into mature responsible adults.


Last edited by amother on Mon, Dec 20 2021, 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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