Son wants to know how do we know HaShem is real

Rising

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 3:50 pm

Twinster wrote:

Regarding knowing vs believing, the Mitzvah is actually to KNOW Him, not just to believe. And to know, you must research until you have no doubt.

I agree.

But there is always room for someone who wants to, to doubt.

Otherwise there wouldn’t be bechirah.

Twinster

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:12 pm

Rising wrote:

I agree.

But there is always room for someone who wants to, to doubt.

Otherwise there wouldn’t be bechirah.

Of course. I meant the fact that questions about Hashem are justified and encouraged by Hashem Himself.

amother

Lemon

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:20 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Excellent question.

It says so in the Torah. By Har Sinai, Hashem revealed Himself to Shishim Riboi of people, who all passed this down to us, till today.

Unlike some other religions that are based on the testimony of one person who claimed to have a revelation in a dream or other episode, the Giluy Shechinah at Maamad Har Sinai was simultaneously experienced by a tremendous multitude of people, all bearing the exact same testimony, and recorded for all time.

So you say. Where are the signed documents? Who's to say that some person or group of persons didn't collaborate on this giant work of fiction and fill it with a parcel of tales that no rational person would believe?

Saying "it's written in the Torah" isn't a proof unless you believe it's a proof, in which case, you wouldn't be asking the question. Given that OP's ds is asking the question, and assuming that he's not doing so just to be a smarkatch and give his mother a hard time, then your answer doesn't cut it.

sigree

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:24 pm

First you tell him that if you walk into a room and see that the table is set, you know that somebody set the table. So when you look at the world, you know that someone created the world.

Then, how do you know that the one who created it is HaShem? And then you talk about maamad har sinai and how it’s harder for thousands of people to make something up then a single person in a desert.

Then, but how do I know he’s still involved today, that was such a long time ago. And then you discuss that the strongest boxer will win on the first match. He doesn’t have to fight every little guy on the streeet to show that he’s the strongest. So HaShem made this big deal by maamad hat sinai and now, he’s not going to just speak for every person that questions him.

Twinster

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:28 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

How likely is it for millions of people to testify that they *personally* heard, saw and experienced the same thing at the same time? Besides, if they did create this on their own, they would’ve made themselves a better story, not one that gives them the hardest life of all people and predicts mostly gloom for themselves.

Last edited by Twinster on Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

Rising

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:31 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

At what point in history do you suggest this fantastic story could have been made up and sold to a group of people as truth? Especially to a group of people as argumentative and opinionated as the Jews, lol.

If one person would have made it up don’t you think we’d have record of the person who told the story of 600,000 people who God revealed Himself to, 600,000 people seeing sounds and hearing sights?

This argument may not be foolproof but it definitely holds water, even if you are coming from the perspective where you are assuming the Torah is not true.

Last edited by Rising on Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Rising

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:32 pm

Twinster wrote:

How likely is it for millions of people to testify that they *personally* heard, saw and experienced the same thing at the same time? Besides, if they did, they would’ve made themselves a better story, not one that gives them the hardest life of all people and predicts mostly gloom for themselves.

Lol, we crossposted.
Agreed.

SixOfWands

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:37 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

He’s 13 and at this age you can’t just regale them with pretty stories. He’s quite a serious boy. I don’t want to mess him up, I’m scared I’ll say the wrong thing. Please Help with answers, resources etc

I think its a great question that demonstrates that he is learning and thinking and growing.

The answer is that there is no one answer. We can all learn, and we can all believe. But knowing is different for everyone.

For me, I knew when I looked at my oldest son's ear. Seriously, have you ever looked at an ear? Its beautiful like a shell, and complex. How was that tiny complexity formed? And two of them, on the same body? And on all humans. Its incomprehensible that my baby's ears could exist without Hashem.

Tell him to look into himself, and outward to the world, and he will find his own reason to know that Hashem is real.

SixOfWands

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:41 pm

Twinster wrote:

But millions of people didn't, if you don't believe that there was a revelation at Har Sinai.

Besides, the Xtians can say the same thing.

Twinster

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 4:44 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

But millions of people didn't, if you don't believe that there was a revelation at Har Sinai.

Besides, the Xtians can say the same thing.

The Mt. Sinai event is based on the testimony of millions of people - an entire nation - who had the identical claim of personally being there. The question is, do you believe such a claim is refutable?

And no, the Christians don’t claim that and neither does any other religion.

Last edited by Twinster on Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Thu, Apr 15 2021, 5:57 pm

Rabbi Tatz and Rabbi Gottlieb have both said something along these lines IIRC: We can't prove, we don't know 100%. But we have enough evidence to make a very informed and reasonable decision to believe.

Chayalle

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 10:10 am

SixOfWands wrote:

But millions of people didn't, if you don't believe that there was a revelation at Har Sinai.

Besides, the Xtians can say the same thing.

Their entire religion is based on the testimony of one man (and his disciples, who often contradicted each other. I remember learning that they actually convened to decide which writing would be "gospel" and which would be excluded, because there was so much contradiction.)

sequoia

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 10:17 am

Chayalle wrote:

There’s plenty of contradiction in our scriptures as well.

Like midrash is often the opposite of pshat.

bigsis144

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 10:37 am

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

There is no society in the whole world that doesn't accept that a week is seven days.

Various ancient societies did have weeks that were not 7 days long, or didn’t have the concept of a week at all; most of them were located far from the Middle East.

If a big empire like the Babylonians or the Romans (or the later empires they influenced like the Spanish or British) conquered somewhere, they brought their 7-day calendar with them, hence its ubiquitousness nowadays.

amother

Rose

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 10:59 am

Because it just does not make sense that we the jewish people exsist. By our numbers no one should have ever heard of us. Every generation others have tried to wipe us out. They (these empires) don't exsist anymore but we do.
Our Torah is integrated in parts into most other religions.
None of this makes sense in a logical way. Therefore, it must be l'maalah min haTeva is the only explanation.