My house is a war zone and it eats me up

amother

Natural

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

How on earth do you stop it? Nothing I do to try to stop it helps. It’s impossible to supervise all day that they shouldn’t be in the same rooms. My house is not that big.

Is there any way you could physically space them out more?

Any basement, office, guest room, or other non-essential space that could be repurposed? Unfinished or half-finished space that could be finished? Or any ways to physically divide existing rooms with partitions?

amother

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:05 pm

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

You said family therapy didn't help. Have you tried individual therapy for each child on their own? Maybe they need to be evaluated by a child psychologist or behavioral therapist.
Hugs & lots of luck.

I haven’t thought of it because socially they all do exceptionally well. It’s only between siblings that they act this way. However, as I said above, if someone was helped with sibling rivalry in this way I’d appreciate the contact info of the therapist.

amother

Navy

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:06 pm

so sorry
I am not saying it is easy
or that I have all the answers for everyone and every situation
worked for us not to discuss it -- like a ref in a pro ball game we call em like we see em and no appeals -- fair or not and hopefully evens out in the big picture
and we made it clear that the kids are not our the parents peers
certainly some kids are more challenging than others or than the average
grateful it worked for us
hugs and hatzlocha

amother

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:08 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

I can’t have it at all hours of the day that they should be separated. What happens breakfast and supper time, seuda time, car ride time? I don’t think it’s realistic. Of course it would be best if they’re always separated but until they’re all married I don’t see it happening.

amother

Natural

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:11 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The idea isn't that they always have to be separated by you, but that they have a more private space to retreat to if they want and are not forced by circumstance to be together when they don't want.

bigsis144

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:13 pm

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

Yup.

Reasons we stopped individual therapy:
(A) “he likes to come to my office and play with the toys, but as soon as I ask him about his home life he just shrugs and says everything is fine. I can’t confront him about incidents that happened at home unless he brings them up - it will destroy his trust in me if he feels I’m on your side and just another person telling him to change.”
(B) “I can’t physically restrain a child who keeps running out of my office. If he doesn’t want to be here, I can’t force it.”
(C) “I’ve done an 8 week psycho-educational evaluation of this child, and it just seems like he’s a glass half-empty kind of kid. No diagnosis. Just give him lots of love and firm boundaries. Good luck!”
(D) “therapy over zoom just isn’t working.”
(E) “he won’t talk to me, so you will have to be the conduit for change in this household.” (Can’t you see I’m desperate for help from a source that isn’t me??? That I’m giving everything I can?? That sometimes a mother isn’t the person a kid feels like opening up to or accepting advice from??? Won’t anyone else take a shred of responsibility instead of just throwing up their hands and saying, ‘well, I tried 🤷🏻‍♀️‘)

womanwithaplan

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:18 pm

Two thoughts:

1. Hurt kids hurt others. Find out if there is a source of bullying that one of your kids may be going through, from a teacher, friend, neighbor, relative etc. Many times that's what leads kids to fight and release stress onto their siblings, and it's hard for the rest of the kids in the family not to catch on until it becomes a family culture.

2. If your apartment is small, that definitely exacerbates the problem. When I moved from a smaller apartment to a bigger unit, the sibling rivalry between my kids improved tremendously. Kids really have a need for space, some more than others. When they dont have the space they need, they can get territorial and aggressive (just like caged animals). Hope this isn't a sore point, but if you're tight in space and its financially feasible, you might wanna consider upgrading.

Also, are your kids getting enough love and attention in healthy ways? Sometimes fighting is a way to get the parents to notice them. This is done subconsciously by kids that have a strong or unmet need for love and attention.

By focusing on calming down the victim and ignoring rather than punishing the perpetrator, and providing plenty of positive reinforcement for good behavior (even tiny acts) you can help the fighting die down.

Lots of hatzlacha!!

amother

Burgundy

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:20 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

It really sounds rough and not simple at all.

I'm wondering if your children have any responsibilities? It does sound like you take too much responsibility for everything in your family.

Did you ever try going full on strict cold witch? Like for example, every kid has a chore to do. No fun stuff AT ALL until all chores are done. Calm, no yelling, but immovable, like a stone. Nothing and no one to talk to. Give them something they have to take responsibility for, and don't feel bad if they call you mean, because it's for their own good. They need to learn boundaries in order to get anywhere in life.

bigsis144

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:52 pm

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

Did you ever try going full on strict cold witch? Like for example, every kid has a chore to do. No fun stuff AT ALL until all chores are done. Calm, no yelling, but immovable, like a stone. Nothing and no one to talk to. Give them something they have to take responsibility for, and don't feel bad if they call you mean, because it's for their own good. They need to learn boundaries in order to get anywhere in life.

What happens when they don’t do said assigned chore?
When they get up and walk away even if you get down to help them get started?
When they try to push past you if you’re blocking the doorway?
When they ask why you’re watching THEM instead of their brother, the lazy idiot, who probably isn’t doing the chore HE was assigned?? Who never does anything around the house and whyyy do you love him more than me...
When they yell that they’ll throw the toddler down the stairs if you don’t SAY ANYTHING?!? WHY AREN’T YOU SAYING ANYTHING???!??
When you finally can’t keep up the “cold witch treatment” and tell them (coldly! Calmly, of course!) that they will be punished for threatening violence and they yell, “NO!” in your face and throw something - does that get a second punishment piled on top?
When you decide to (calmly! ☺️) drop this altercation and go check on Child B, who as a matter of fact, *hasn’t* been doing any chores at all! And Child A is *incandescent* with righteous rage that they were right all along and you have been oppressing the wrong child...

It’s hell and anyone not living through this doesn’t understand why “just be firm” means nothing.

YOUR KIDS ARE JUST DIFFERENT.

Last edited by bigsis144 on Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:59 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 1:56 pm

Hi OP,

I hear and feel your pain. Sending you love and encouragement.

First of all, this is a topic very sensitive and important to me for two reasons. First, I grew up in a dysfunctional home where my siblings and I were pitted against each other. I was bullied by them constantly

Secondly, I got married later in life and so was privy up close to fighting among my friends' kids and my friends' endless aggravations over it. So for both these reasons I vowed my kids wouldn't fight.

The biggest and most glaring thing that I've seen moms do over and over (and which never works) is get involved constantly and act as constant judge and jury. For many reasons, this will backfire and the kids will not only fight more, they will grow to resent you and their perception will forever be of you taking the unfair side.

I read something brilliant once which we implement here in our home and it works like magic. And yes, it's for kids of all ages:

No tolerance policy.

Zero.

NO FIGHTING IN YOUR PRESENCE

If kids are fighting they get dragged TOGETHER into a room TOGETHER. IMMEDIATELY. This is counterintuitive because of course you want to separate them but NO.
NO ONE IS LET OUT OF THE ROOM UNTIL BOTH (or all) PARTIES ARE HAPPY. So they can fight but not in front of you. It's amazing how even small children can work things out when forced to. After the screaming and crying quiets down I'll often eavesdrop on the negotiations. You are NOT involved. You DO NOT get involved. (with the *very* rare exception of egregious unfairness, like one sibling grabbing another new toy. Believe it or not these clear cut situations almost NEVER OCCUR.) I've noticed families where kids fight, the fighting is usually practically habitual. Your goal is breaking the habit.

It takes time. Stay strong.

bigsis144

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 2:05 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

No tolerance policy.

Zero.

NO FIGHTING IN YOUR PRESENCE

If kids are fighting they get dragged TOGETHER into a room TOGETHER. IMMEDIATELY. This is counterintuitive because of course you want to separate them but NO.
NO ONE IS LET OUT OF THE ROOM UNTIL BOTH (or all) PARTIES ARE HAPPY. So they can fight but not in front of you. It's amazing how even small children can work things out when forced to. After the screaming and crying quiets down I'll often eavesdrop on the negotiations. You are NOT involved. You DO NOT get involved. (with the *very* rare exception of egregious unfairness, like one sibling grabbing another new toy. Believe it or not these clear cut situations almost NEVER OCCUR.) I've noticed families where kids fight is usually practically habitual. Your goal is breaking the habit.

It takes time. Stay strong.

Your examples of fighting are bickering and your “egregious unfairness” is grabbing a new toy.

*sigh*

What about kids who punch and kick and bite one another?

What about when Child B screams “Ema, help me!!!! Why won’t you protect me!!!” while you see Child A chasing him across the house with murder in his eyes? But Child A has a vicious bite mark on his arm and multiple scratches on his face from child B and cannot be reasoned with?

What about kids who punch one another in the head over things like whose turn it is to use the computer before even using a single word (“he should have known it was my turn!!! The clock SAYS 4:45 and he’s still sitting there cuz he wants to steal my computer time!!!”) , and when told to “work it out” will just punch one another some more?????

What about bullying where one child is clearly the victim? My 11 year old will pull the 2 year old’s pigtails because “they look weird and I hate them”. He says, “Chavi stupid! Chavi baaaaad!!” just for fun and she’s old enough to cry from the tone of his voice, if not the meaning of his words. Or to assert his superiority because he is a depressed and dysregulated pre-teen and he somehow needs to put a BABY down in order to feel remotely better about himself? He needs constant supervision and says, “yeah, I’m a bad boy. I don’t care.” when confronted about his behavior.

I need a live-in therapist.

Last edited by bigsis144 on Fri, Apr 16 2021, 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Olive

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 2:45 pm

Im just putting this out there:
I grew up with INSANE sibling rivalry, similar to what you're all describing. My parents also had great shalom bayis and a great relationship with each of us. We screamed and fought day in and day out. We were picked on and picked on other siblings for stupid reasons.
Today (im one of the oldests, im about 30) we are one of the closest families I know. We really love each other, we speak all the time, and have each other for shabbos constantly. We just really enjoy every opportunity to be together. We are always mevater to each other and easily fargin when one child gets something that another doesnt.
I hope this helps even one of you! I know my parents went through hell with our fighting as children, but they are having intense nachas now, and I promise youd rather fighting teens than fighting adults.
Maybe they just need to get it out of their system!

amother

Denim

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 2:49 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

Not OP, but would love some responses to these scenarios, as well Sad

amother

Orange

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 2:53 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

Btw, OP, I hope I’m not taking over this thread. I don’t mean to talk over you or prevent you from getting responses -

I hope you understand my intentions are utter empathy and commiseration, as well as giving examples so that people who don’t live with this might actually understand what it’s like.

If you’re in a different situation than me, I’ll butt out of this thread 👍

Good Shabbos

I am not saying this to hurt you but I think your kids both need a real diagnosis from top psychologists plus serious medication, even if it means them living elsewhere for a while. They are a serious danger to each other and to your toddler. This isn’t sibling rivalry. Please take this more seriously.

amother

Black

Fri, Apr 16 2021, 2:56 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

Same. I don’t think it’s such a big deal. We all grew up and are super close. It’s part of growing up: