Question abt das torah

amother

Tangerine

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 8:45 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Lots to read and process , thank you

Abt the eating meat- I was told its halacha.

I understand that a rav will BH be honest if he feels a question needs a rav with more expertise, so it needs to go up a chain, till you reach a rav who will say okay you can do it.
It makes me so frustrated because for example if you want a heter for a semen analysis or iui you will eventually get a heter but only after going up and up the chain and saying your story again and again till a rav is sympathetic enough. That's how it seems to me. And of course he will say "just make a little hole in the condom", is the hole really doing anything? Why even bother? Just let a couple do what they need to do.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other examples. This is just the first that comes to mind right now.

Because of the severity of a semen analysis in Halacha, a Rav will want that you do everything possible before getting to that point. Once you are at the point where this is the only option then it's Halachicly valid to give a heter. The hole in the condom does make a difference, because of the potential that the zera can go out, it is Halachicly acceptable in this situation.
It's not about the Rav being sympathetic enough,it's about the reality of taking responsibility for something so enormous.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 9:43 pm

There's a concept of l'chatchila and b'dieved.

L'chatchila, we like to cover all opinions, and we may want to avoid something.

But if it's not possible, or it's after the fact, or if there's a circumstance that's more important that overrides, the answer is different.

Take something universal like fasting on Yom Kippur. Of course you should fast on Yom Kippur.
But what if you are sick? How sick? Does that override Yom Kippur? Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.

Back to your example: All things being equal, it's better not to eat meat on Mikvah day. But all things are never equal. It's better to eat meat on Yom Tov than to refrain. Now let's say you forgot and ate meat. Now a rav will probably say it's better to go to the mikvah in this case rather than push it off (although you should probably brush well).

See what I mean? Sometimes it's not about right or wrong, but about what takes priority in a situation.

If you're asking a rav a general halachic question, then it's like asking a teacher, someone who knows halacha more than you. But often a shaila is about two competing values, like Yom Kippur vs. health.

amother

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 9:54 pm

I like what everyone is saying
(I dont want to derail my own topic so I'm gonna let go abt the semen analysis, for now at least)
I'm hearing that it's actually a nice thing abt the torah that it's not so black and white. It would probably be horrible if it was that way. So it's nice that each question is taken into consideration. Which is why books of question & answers by such and such rabbi never made sense to me, the rabbi was specifically answering the person who asked, his answer is pretty pointless to everyone reading the book.
I know I dont make any sense. But my question still remains. It's nice that the rabbi paskens that the chicken is good for the poor family, but than he is not paskening from halacha but from sympathy toward them.
If a question is just random- what is the ravs answer based on? I feel like the rav for sure just makes something up, it's not halacha or hashkafa. Like ppl who ask a rav shud I get a navy or gray carolla

amother

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 10:02 pm

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

Wow this makes a lot of sense

My husband always says "anyone can say no, it takes a real talmid chacham to say yes". Its easy to just say the bedika was bad, the pot is trief now etc.
I guess it still frustrates me though because the rabbanim where I live are very extreme and I dont respect that they say no so fast to everything. I always end up getting a yes from a rav out of the community.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 10:28 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Ok, first of all, people ask a Rav of they should get a navy or gray Corolla, or did you make that up as a silly example??

In terms of lechatchila and b'dieved, like the other poster said, wherever possible, we want to be lechatchila- you wany to take the most preferred way. Sometimes you have no choice, so you need to go with the b'dieved. But only a very big expert can take that upon himself and know where cutting corners can still be ok.

To take a medical example again. Let's say someone c"v has a heart attack on the plane. The flight attendants ask if there are any doctors on board. Happens to be a cardiologist is on board and he is able to do open heart surgery with a parker pen and save the patients life.( there are real stories like this.)
That surgery was not ideal. Ideally, he would be wearing sterilized gloves and the whole room would be sterlized, as well as all the tools and equipment. He would be wearing scrubs and a surgical mask. And yet, here he was able to sterilize a parker pain by pouring alcohol on the pen and do the surgery without all the other things. Why? Because there was no choice. And as an expert, he could make quick decisions and do that which is most important.

But we wouldnt say, see all those other precautions are unnecessary. If it's good enough to do the surgery without all those preps, then its good enough always. If its good enough to brush and floss my teeth, why can't I eat meat always?. Because it's not ideal. Its only ok in very extenuating circumstances. Same with all the difficult infertility treatments. Those are not ideal. But if there is no choice, a big expert will give heterim when other avenues are exhausted.

Books on questions that Rabbis answer are interesting for several reasons. First of all, it sometimes brings awareness to the type of questions one can have. You read it and say, wait, I never knew that was a problem. I do that all the time. So now you know.

Some questions are generic- so obviously those are helpful.

Finally, even if its a very individual and personalized question, its fascinating sometimes to read the thought process of the Rav. (I feel that way when reading Rabbi shais Taub's column in Ami.) You could learn alot from the way he breaks down the question.

Now, as far as the rav paskening that the chicken is ok for the poor family...you missed the point. He isn't making anything up. As others have explained, it goes like this:

The chicken has a problem with its liver. The poskim dispute whether that type of problem renders the chicken unkosher. Most say it does. Others say it doesn't. The rav would feel more comfortable following the majority opinion. So in the case of a wealthy family who won't be very affected by this, he will say, the chicken is no good. But to the poor family, he knows that this chicken is their only sustenece. In that case, its ok to rely on the minority opinion. The minority opinion was not made by some quack rabbi, but by one of the luminaries of his generation. The only reason we dont pasken like that luminary is because he was in the minority. But one can still rely on him in a pinch. The halacha is not decided based on sympathy towards the poor family, but based on halacha!. Meaning, if there was no opinion that held that the chicken could be rendered kosher, he would not be able to say it's good, no matter how poor they are or how much sympathy he has for them.

As far as hashkafa, he doesnt "make things up". He is acting as an advisor, using his own torah based hashkafa to advice the questioner. Just like one would consult with a psychologust, because you respect their knowledge of psychology, the psychologist isn't making it up as he goes along. He relies on his training to view the situation. So it is with a talmid chacham.

amother

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 10:44 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Thank you for explaining all that to me. It all makes sense

I do have to say though that rabbanim often times are not knowledgeable abt mental health or fertility or struggling teens etc etc and really should not be guiding ppl on topics that they are not qualified. The issue is a rav has to be honest tell ppl to seek out a more qualified rav.
It happens that you ask a rav and they answer based on their torah knowledge but really they should have passed you on to an expert.

amother

Lilac

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 11:09 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Not eating meat on the day of the mikva is brought down in halacha. Exceptions are made in certain circumstances (like yomtov), in which case the woman should take extra care in cleaning her teeth. Poskim dispute if this includes chicken and ground meat, which won't get stuck in your teeth. Also they dispute whether it includes anything fleishig, such as chicken soup, even though the issue of meat getting stuck between one's teeth is certainly not an issue in that case.

Also, you are asking, if brushing and flossing is good enough, why is it not always good enough. Halacha attempts to guide the woman so she can avoid problems. So they say not to knead challa or eat meat. Yes you can theoretically do those things and spend extra time cleaning your hands and teeth well. But why look for trouble? If you know you are going to the mikva at night, you might put on less makeup that day. Just smart.

Many women would not necessarily think of not baking challa or eating meat if it wasn't spelled out for them as activities to avoid.

Regarding meat, it is in halacha, but it's meforush in halacha that it's NOT me'akev. That means if you do, it doesn't hold you back from tevilla that night. So a tab can judge whether your reason for needing to eat meat in enough to go against a halachik guideline.

amother

Lilac

Mon, Apr 19 2021, 11:09 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Apr 20 2021, 3:54 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

No, this is not the way it is. First of all, with your example, did you ask a rav who is knowledgeable in infertility? I never had that experience. We had to do a SA as well. We spoke to a rav who outright told us, the first time we spoke to him about this, that there is no issue because the semen is being used for a very specific purpose and we did not even have to use a condom. My husband did it the regular way, into a cup.
So, no, not all rabbanim will make you go through hoops just o get the answer you need.
And why even bother? Many dont bother with asking for the exact reason you gave.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Apr 20 2021, 3:57 am

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

My issue isn't about how they get to the heter. I understand that it's a process, relying on different opinions, etc.
My question is WHY isn't it black and white. Torah is an instruction manual. Either this switch turns the machine on or off. WHY can you have one set of instructions for one person and a whole different set for other people. And why, if one derech/chumrah doesn't resonate with me, do I need a heter? Why can't I just rely on my own learning to change? (E.g. there are opinions that the complete hair doesn't have to be covered. Why can't I adopt that minhag, if it's a legitimate opinion? Why can't we all, if we chose to? Why would it be wrong for one but right for another?)

Because there are 70 panim latorah. We learned this when we were so small. Its how it is. Otherwise everyone would be the same type of jew.
But its not that way and w all follow different rabbanim who hold differently after learning the sources. Thats all.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Apr 20 2021, 3:59 am

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

So interesting that this example is being given. As I wrote above, we were told right off the bat that doing a SA is completely fine because the sperm is not levatala at all, but rather it has a very specific purpose. So not all rabbanim make couples go through all of the hoops until the last possible way of doing it is it.
I really feel that when rabbanim REALLY know the halachot in regards to infertility, they answer things differently.
Nobody is doing a SA just for the fun of it.

amother

Yellow

Tue, Apr 20 2021, 9:12 am

This thread reminds me of two interesting stories.

The first story I read years ago. It's about Rav Shmuel Salant, who was Chief Rabbi in Yerushalayim for 70 years. (He died in 1909).

In those days, in additon to challa, people used to make kneidlach for the cholent out of the same dough, and they would eat them as part of the meal on Shabbos day. One Friday night after candlelighting, Mrs. A. realized that she forgot to burn the piece of dough that she separated for hafrashas challa . She started looking for the piece but couldn't find it. It came to light that one of her kids added the separated dough to the rest of the dough that was reserved for the cholent. And now, the challa was in the cholent.

Mrs. A. Didnt know what the status of her cholent was now. Maybe the whole cholent was not permitted.

She rushed over to the home of Rav Shmuel Salant, who was a renowned posek. She told him the whole story and he ruled that the cholent was fine. It was permitted to be eaten.

Relieved that her Shabbos lunch was saved, she left the Churva courtyard and
bumped into a friend, Mrs. B, who was on her way in. They stopped to shmooze for a minute and Mrs. A told Mrs. B. the whole story and the psak of the Rav.

Mrs. B was shocked because it turned out that she had the identical question. Somehow she too had thrown the challa piece into the cholent! . Relieved that her cholent was fine, she turned to go home, but then realized that she should go in to ask her own question.

She went in to Rav Shmuel, and, lo and behold, he told her that her cholent was no good. Her whole cholent was not permitted to be eaten.

She was confused but didn't have the courage to ask the Rav why her cholent was different than her neighbor's. When she came home she told her husband the whole story. Her husband decided to go back to the rav to check, just in case one of the women didn't explain the story well. If it turned out that the neighbor's cholent was really not good, he could prevent fellow jews (family A) from sinning. If it turned out that his cholent was really fine, it would prevent needless waste.

When he arrived at Rav Shmuel's house, the Rav said, "I know you are here because you want to know why I said your cholent was not good, while your neighbor's was fine. The answer is that your neighbor has 12 kids. So surely she made a very big cholent. Therefore the small challa dough that she separated was surely nullified (batul b'shishim). You, on the other hand, have married all your kids already, so it's just you and your wife. So your cholent is certainly smaller. In that case, your challa is not batel b'shishim."

Two neighbors. Identical question. Different psakim. But really, it wasn't the identical question. The Rav wasn't ruling out of sympathy for one of the families, but out of his knowledge of halacha. As a Rav who knew the families in his neighborhood, he was able to factor in crucial details that made all the difference in the halacha.

I will come back later to write the second story b"n.

Crookshanks

Tue, Apr 20 2021, 9:15 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

This thread reminds me of two interesting stories.

The first story I read years ago. It's about Rav Shmuel Salant, who was Chief Rabbi in Yerushalayim for 70 years. (He died in 1909).

In those days, in additon to challa, people used to make kneidlach for the cholent out of the same dough, and they would eat them as part of the meal on Shabbos day. One Friday night after candlelighting, Mrs. A. realized that she forgot to burn the piece of dough that she separated for hafrashas challa . She started looking for the piece but couldn't find it. It came to light that one of her kids added the separated dough to the rest of the dough that was reserved for the cholent. And now, the challa was in the cholent.

Mrs. A. Didnt know what the status of her cholent was now. Maybe the whole cholent was not permitted.

She rushed over to the home of Rav Shmuel Salant, who was a renowned posek. She told him the whole story and he ruled that the cholent was fine. It was permitted to be eaten.

Relieved that her shabbos lunch was saved, she left the Churva courtyard and
bumped into a friend, Mrs. B, who was on her way in. They stopped to shmooze for a minute and Mrs. A told her Mrs. B. the whole story and the psak of the Rav.

Mrs. B was shocked because it turned out that she had the identical question. Somehow she too had thrown the challa piece into the cholent. . Relieved that her cholent was fine, she turned to go home, but then realized that she should go in to ask her own question.

She went in to Rav Shmuel, and lo and behold, he told her that her cholent is no good. Her whole cholent was not permitted to be eaten.

She was confused but didnt have the courage to ask the Rav why her cholent was different than her neighbor's. When she came home she told her husband the whole story. Her husband decided to go back to the rav to check, just in case one of the women didnt explain the story well. If it turned out that the neighbor's cholent was really not good, he could prevent fellow jews (family A) from sinning. If it turned out that his cholent was really fine, it would prevent needless waste.

When he arrived at Rav Shmuel's house, the Rav said, "I know you are here because you want to know why I said your cholent was not good, while your neighbor's was fine. The answer is that your neighbor has 12 kids. So surely she made a very big cholent. Therefore the small challa dough that she separated was surely nullified (batul b'shishim). You, on the other hand, have married all your kids already, so it's just you and your wife. So your cholent is certainly smaller. In that case, your challa is not batel b'shishim."

Two neighbors. Identical questions. Different psakim. But really, it wasn't the identical question. The Rav wasn't ruling out of sympathy for one of the families, but out of his knowledge of halacha. As a Rav who knew the families in his neighborhood, he was able to factor in crucial details that made all the difference in the halacha.

I will come back later to write the second story b"n.

I love this story. Thanks for posting.

honey36

Tue, Apr 20 2021, 10:29 am

As others have explained, I think there is a difference between "shopping" around for a heter and going to someone who is more experienced in the area.

We have one rav who we ask all our shailos to. He is a real expert in hilchos Shabbos etc., but not as much regarding taharas hamishpacha. He will answer our basic taharas mishpacha shailos, but if it's a "difficult color" or something he will send us to the expert rav in the community. Sometimes he is maykil and sometimes machmir, so obviously we weren't "shopping" for a heter. So to answer the question, if your only going to a rav to get a heter specifically, that's probably not ok halachikally.

To answer your question regarding "random" questions people ask their rav, my husband does this sometimes if yes unsure whether it may be halachik- like a medical shailah- sometimes it overlaps with halacha and sometimes not. So if it doesn't overlap, our rav will just tell us to listen to our doctor. If it does overlap, he will look more into it using halachik sources and medical professionals he's in touch with etc.

If we asked him what color car to get he would laugh 😂.

Also another interesting story I heard regarding your question of how can halacha be different and not black and white; (I may have gotten the details mixed up but basically...)

A man who lived in israel went to a rav with a medical question- he had a certain lung disease. His doctors told him he had two choices- stay in israel and get an operation, but it was very risky and he might not survive, or go to Germany for a different type of treatment which was also very risky and low survival rate. The rav told him to go to Germany. The other treatment was very successful and he fully recovered.

When asked how the rav knew what to choose, he said that this type of lung disease is discussed in halacha regarding animals kashrus. The poskim from eretz yisrael hold this type of disease makes the animal treif, and the poskim from germany held the animal is still kosher. So he felt taking this into account it was more likely the man would live if he went to Germany for the treatment!

amother

Yellow

Tue, Apr 20 2021, 10:46 am

Story #2. I read this one very recently but unfortunately can't remember which Rav it happened to, and I'm also slightly fuzzy on the details. But I remember the main idea. (Maybe someone here has heard the story and can provide the details. )

A woman was cooking a large meat stew for a seuda, perhaps a siyum for her husband. There was a jug of milk on a windowsill above where the pot was cooking. Somehow, the jug tipped over and all the milk spilled into the meat stew. She was expecting the guests shortly and there was no time to start cooking again!

Her husband ran to ask the Rav what to do. The rav asked many questions, how big the pot was, how big the milk jug was, etc, and then told the man to come back in an hour. An hour later, he came back and the Rav told him that the stew was fine. It could be eaten.

The man went home and told his wife it was fine to be eaten. But he was perturbed. He was also a talmid chacham and he knew that the milk was definitely not batul b'shishim. It was a large jug of milk, relative to the pot. He couldn't understand on what basis the Rav said it was muttar.

The time for the seuda arrived and all the guests came, and to everyone's surprise, the rav was also there. He joined the seuda and ate from the stew. When the host saw that, he felt much better about serving and eating the stew. But he still wondered.

The next day he went to the Rav to ask him to explain his ruling.

The Rav said that he will explain it just because he sees how disturbed he is, but that it needs to remain a secret. He said that he knew that the woman who sold the milk was cheating her customers by diluting the milk with water. She was a poor widow who had trouble making ends meet. He had warned her many times that it was wrong. Now when this shayla came up, he summoned her and asked her if she was still diluting the milk. She admitted that she was. He asked her how much water was added to the milk? Based on his calculations of the ratio of milk to water, and that mixture to the stew, he was able to figure out that it actually WAS batul b'shishim. He warned the milk seller that if she did not commit to stop diluting the milk, he would take action against her. She promised to stop. (Perhaps he also gave her tzedaka..)

But meanwhile, the rav knew that the stew was fine. Not wanting to incriminate the milkseller, and yet sensing that the host was uncomfortable with the psak, he decided to join the seuda and eat from the stew, thus demonstrating that it was really okay.

Again. This is the idea of asking shaylas. Sometimes a shayla seems clear cut to us, but there may be other factors that would actually change the psak from assur to muttar, and vice versa. A rav who is an expert in the halachos knows how to examine the shayla from all angles.

There is also the idea that Rabbonim who are l'sheim shomayaim are given a measure of sitatta dishmaya when answering questions.

amother

Yellow

Tue, Apr 20 2021, 10:48 am

honey36 wrote:

Great story!!