Did strictness win?

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 3:19 pm

avrahamama wrote:

Yeah that example really disturbed me. Shechita, safrut, mohel are things that required an actual kabala. Not just oh I do whatever my daddy did. There was learning and practice and observation all involved.

I could see how maybe things like checking for bugs with a thrip cloth and light box aren't exactly what our grandmothers did. But shechita not having any basis in written halacha until postwar Europe?

Checking for bugs became more necessary because the whole system of growing and distributing fruits and veggies has greatly changed.
150 years ago you are what was grown in a local area and transfer of bugs was minimal.
Today veggies are produced in huge fields and produce , including the bugs, fly from one country to the other, infesting local produce.

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 3:21 pm

zaq wrote:

So what is your question?

I think the shift from learning-by-seeing to learning-from-books is true in large part, but I'm not so sure that the slide to the right is due entirely or even mostly to this shift in learning modalities. When you learn-by-seeing, you accept as halacha many things that are not halacha. This is why some people believe that the halacha is that you must clean behind and under your stove and fridge and take up your floor tiles before Pesach. Their grandmother did this, ergo it's halacha. Their mother had conniptions when someone put a fleishik dish on a milchik table, therefore they do, too.

There has been a slide to the right for other reasons. Some, possibly most, of it is pushback in response to the growing liberality of secular society. Groups that feel their way of life is being threatened tend to cling more tightly to their traditions. Another factor is the growth of the kiruv movement.

I totally "get" people who are turned off from frumkeit because of all the restrictions. It does seem as if every day there's a new prohibition. Some people thrive on this sort of thing, because it gives them a sense of control, security, superiority, righteousness or closeness to G-d. Others, not so much, especially if they were already observant and now they're being told that whatever they were doing isn't good enough.

What new prohibition's do you see?

zaq

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 3:41 pm

Frumme wrote:

It's been discussed here before... Beis Yaakov of Boro Park's first graduated class had dresses with sleeves above the elbow, Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka Schneerson with the slightly V-necked wedding dress, etc etc. Those things weren't considered untznius at the time. As a whole today people have become obsessed with exact measurements and the like, especially due to strict tznius halacha books (re: recent neck tznius thread).

Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was, how do you know that 100 years ago--which was the flapper era in the US, btw--people didn't use rulers to measure hem lengths? Maybe they did. Flapper skirts were very short.

Although, tbh, a hundred years ago most Jews in this country (excluding the wealthy Our Crowd and The Grandees sector) were too busy trying to survive, period, let alone survive as observant Jews, to be concerned with such minutiae.

amother

Coffee

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 3:53 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

The entire kashrus thing has become way way stricter

amother

Coffee

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 4:18 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

One reason is that food industry has changed profoundly.
To have hechsher on any type of food is a huge convenience too. Smile

It is, but it isn’t...
My grandfather, father, and husband are all in kashrus. My grandfather and father both remember the days where they could just buy something after reading the ingredients. But now, you can’t just do that. So, yes, it’s easier because you don’t have to read ingredients, but now you are only limited to things that have a hechsher on them. Hard to follow, sorry.
I don’t think it affects anyone, though, because of the product availability, anyway.
Either way, kashrus did get stricter. Along with a lot of other things that other posters mentioned. So OP is right.

zaq

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 4:55 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

The biggest change wasn't bugs flying from one country to another, which they have always done--although increased air travel certainly makes the spread faster. What really did it was the banning of DDT. DDT was a fabulous pesticide and not only helped control many insect-borne diseases (for which it was developed) but also saved a lot of produce from being ruined by bugs. Unfortunately, it also persisted in the environment and worked its way up the food chain and proved lethal or severely damaging to higher animals. Some species like the bald eagle came close to being wiped out, and it was found to be a probable human carcinogen.

In the days of DDT, I never even heard of bugs in produce, let alone ever saw such a thing IRL. I thought lice were something from the Dark Ages. When my dc started school and had to submit to a lice check, I thought "you have got to be kidding me. Surely lice, like smallpox, were eradicated from the globe?"

Last edited by zaq on Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

avrahamama

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:00 pm

There's checking for bugs. And then there's using magnifying glasses and thrip clothes and lightboxes and dishwashing soap to check for bugs.

ETA checking for bugs was always necessary. I remember learning about using salt or vinegar to soak and check the water. But now as time goes by the bug checking has become more intense and involved and strict.

Last edited by avrahamama on Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

zaq

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:02 pm

English3 wrote:

Women used to wear long flowing skirts it is only recently that women wear short skirts and pants

Not true, unless by "recently" you mean in the 20th century. Short skirts were rampant in the flapper era and short skirts and trousers were popular during WWII. Granted, they weren't micro-minis , but they were short. And thanks to the shortages of silk and nylon during the war--the fibers being used for parachutes, flak jackets, and other military gear--women went bare-legged and used eyeliner or ink to paint "seams" up their legs.

Frumme

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:06 pm

zaq wrote:

I think this is probably your answer right here. I don't think a perfect hem "measurement" existed like it does today, it was probably more hargesh (feeling) vs "6 inches below the knee" kinda thing

amother

Coffee

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:12 pm

chanatron1000 wrote:

It used to be easier to understand the ingredients.

So then why can’t I eat a Lotus cookie on my Al Italia flight, but I can eat the same cookie with the same ingredients once it has a hechsher? Etc etc
There are so many products that have acceptable ingredients that don’t have a hechsher.
Again, nowadays there are so many products that are available that nobody notices or cares about the strictness.
And I love what avrahamama said about the bugs and magnifying glasses and thrip cloths etc. LOL

Right on, sister.

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:15 pm

avrahamama wrote:

More intense and strict? Scratching Head

what are you buying that involves that lot of work?

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:20 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Right on, sister.

A lot of large companies produce the brand in different plants. The kosher ones produced in country a and nonkosher in country b. I have personally come across this with alcohol.

amother

Coffee

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:22 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

A lot of large companies produce the brand in different plants. The kosher ones produced in country a and nonkosher in country b. I have personally come across this with alcohol.

Thus proving my point further, thank u

youngishbear

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:22 pm

zaq wrote:

What about before DDT?

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:30 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Right on, sister.

I am not so sure that you can always trust the ingredients list only. We don't know what is going on in the factory and if they produce multiple lines of products.
Example: when I was in cooking school we once opened a huge can of greek black olives. Seems quite innocent , right? That can in fact they can had a large chunk of feta cheese in it together with them olives. That cheese is salty and brine salty. I guess the olives were to be considered milchig. What seems so simple isn't always that simple...