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Did strictness win?
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:33 pm
youngishbear wrote:
What about before DDT?

Back in the old days they had framing amd growing veggies on a small scale and usual local produce.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:41 pm
youngishbear wrote:
What about before DDT?


I wasn't around before DDT so I can't say.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 5:46 pm
You know what bothers me?

I see how the middle-aged women are considered perfectly tznius with their wigs, short and refined. Their rights are thick but not a specific company.

Their daughters usually wear tichels, hats and bands over their wigs. Not because they choose to, it's because they're expected to conform to the new tznius standard. And they have to wear a particular brand tights or they take the risk of being considered chilled.

Why was it good enough for their mothers and not them?
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Frumme




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 6:21 pm
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
So then why can’t I eat a Lotus cookie on my Al Italia flight, but I can eat the same cookie with the same ingredients once it has a hechsher? Etc etc
There are so many products that have acceptable ingredients that don’t have a hechsher.
Again, nowadays there are so many products that are available that nobody notices or cares about the strictness.
And I love what avrahamama said about the bugs and magnifying glasses and thrip cloths etc. LOL Right on, sister.


If it were only that easy!

Processing agents do not have to be listed on ingredients lists. Your kosher-by-ingredients cookies could have been baked on lard-greased cookie sheets.

Bacon grease is a known anti-foaming agent in maple syrup and apple cider.

Refined white sugar is made with bone char. (Thankfully not a Kashrus concern)

Fact is, most people do not know what goes on in factories.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 6:24 pm
zaq wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was, how do you know that 100 years ago--which was the flapper era in the US, btw--people didn't use rulers to measure hem lengths? Maybe they did. Flapper skirts were very short.

Although, tbh, a hundred years ago most Jews in this country (excluding the wealthy Our Crowd and The Grandees sector) were too busy trying to survive, period, let alone survive as observant Jews, to be concerned with such minutiae.

Well, there WAS a time when women were thrown off the beach because the skirt of their swim dress was too short, so I guess they were using a ruler then.
With regards to head shaving, head shaving is a thing kabalistically, but it wasn’t really followed by the female masses. Men shaving their heads is different, because there may be halacha involved.
I believe it was the chasam sofer who brought it back for women, at least according to the podcast I was listening to. I’m sure there are differing opinions, and there’s different info out there. Wouldn’t it be nice though, if we could present different info without others being nasty?
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 6:27 pm
Bnei Berak 10 wrote:
I am not so sure that you can always trust the ingredients list only. We don't know what is going on in the factory and if they produce multiple lines of products.
Example: when I was in cooking school we once opened a huge can of greek black olives. Seems quite innocent , right? That can in fact they can had a large chunk of feta cheese in it together with them olives. That cheese is salty and brine salty. I guess the olives were to be considered milchig. What seems so simple isn't always that simple...


Right. So the kashrus agencies made a lot of things more complicated. And kashrus rules are getting stricter.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 6:32 pm
Frumme wrote:
If it were only that easy!

Processing agents do not have to be listed on ingredients lists. Your kosher-by-ingredients cookies could have been baked on lard-greased cookie sheets.

Bacon grease is a known anti-foaming agent in maple syrup and apple cider.

Refined white sugar is made with bone char. (Thankfully not a Kashrus concern)

Fact is, most people do not know what goes on in factories.


Processing agents are generally chemicals, which don’t require a kashrus in the first place. Like activated charcoal.
Anything else that would be added would have to be standard across all factories, and the reason it isn’t listed is because it’s not significant enough to be considered an ingredient. So most probably batel b’shishim, anyway.
Look, I’m not saying that you should go eat a non-branded lotus cookie. My point is that kashrus got stricter.
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amother
Scarlet


 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 6:38 pm
Bnei Berak 10 wrote:
More intense and strict? Scratching Head what are you buying that involves that lot of work?


You don't think that checking leafy greens for bugs is a lot of work? For my part, I find it a great deal of work, even harder as I get older and my near vision is a thing of the past. For Pesach I ask my dc to come early so they can check the greens for me.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 6:44 pm
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
Processing agents are generally chemicals, which don’t require a kashrus in the first place. Like activated charcoal.
Anything else that would be added would have to be standard across all factories, and the reason it isn’t listed is because it’s not significant enough to be considered an ingredient. So most probably batel b’shishim, anyway.
Look, I’m not saying that you should go eat a non-branded lotus cookie. My point is that kashrus got stricter.


Nope. You come across as seeming to know things but actually don't.

For example, several years ago there was a single Campbell's soup flavor that when produced in a specific location on specific lines was kosher. Only the cans with the hechsher were acceptable. Any other can of that flavor was pure treif, despite containing the same ingredients. Based on what you're saying there should be no reason for some cans to have the hechsher other than the strictness of the agency. Banging head

And you can't just decide something is batel! It's more than just a ratio of ingredients if knowingly done...
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avrahamama




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 6:45 pm
amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:
You don't think that checking leafy greens for bugs is a lot of work? For my part, I find it a great deal of work, even harder as I get older and my near vision is a thing of the past. For Pesach I ask my dc to come early so they can check the greens for me.


It is! And I prefer to eat a lot of greens! Mint, cilantro, parsley, romaine, arugula, spinach, taragon, basil. You know the stuff that is nourishing and healthy...
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 6:50 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
Well, there WAS a time when women were thrown off the beach because the skirt of their swim dress was too short, so I guess they were using a ruler then.


More recently, in the 1960s or so, some beaches had a rule that a bikini bottom had to be at least 2 inches wide at the sides, and for a time inspectors did, in fact, go around with rulers. I recall a magazine article in which a woman said she kept a 2-inch-wide belt to slip on when the inspectors came around. (Conveniently, hip-hugger belts were in fashion at that time, too.)
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 7:40 pm
cbsp wrote:
Nope. You come across as seeming to know things but actually don't.

For example, several years ago there was a single Campbell's soup flavor that when produced in a specific location on specific lines was kosher. Only the cans with the hechsher were acceptable. Any other can of that flavor was pure treif, despite containing the same ingredients. Based on what you're saying there should be no reason for some cans to have the hechsher other than the strictness of the agency. Banging head

And you can't just decide something is batel! It's more than just a ratio of ingredients if knowingly done...


It’s definitely true. I’ll ask my husband when he comes home to clarify, but we actually have had similar conversations.
My grandfather was one of the mashgichim of a popular kashrus agency, and he says it all the time. Kashrus got stricter. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, just a fact. Most of the time, there’s a difference in hechsher vs no hechsher for just-in-case purposes, which rarely rarely happen. And sometimes, things don’t have a hechsher for no reason at all. You know how many times he’s gone into a factory to see if he can put a hechsher on a product, and he saw absolutely zero things wrong with production?
And there are food products that are so obviously not processed with anything sketchy, for example certified vegan products, that don’t have a hechsher. Those would be considered totally ok 40 years ago, but now because of all the stringencies and kashrus agencies, they’re not.
Krispy Kreme across the country uses the same exact ingredients in every single shop, and not every single one is certified.
There are other products, like garbage bags and foil, that some people will only buy with a hechsher. That’s also a new thing.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 7:44 pm
cbsp wrote:
Nope. You come across as seeming to know things but actually don't.

For example, several years ago there was a single Campbell's soup flavor that when produced in a specific location on specific lines was kosher. Only the cans with the hechsher were acceptable. Any other can of that flavor was pure treif, despite containing the same ingredients. Based on what you're saying there should be no reason for some cans to have the hechsher other than the strictness of the agency. Banging head

And you can't just decide something is batel! It's more than just a ratio of ingredients if knowingly done...

Just FYI if they had the same ingredients, and nothing different, then it couldn’t have been pure tried.
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Frumme




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 7:49 pm
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
Processing agents are generally chemicals, which don’t require a kashrus in the first place. Like activated charcoal.
Anything else that would be added would have to be standard across all factories, and the reason it isn’t listed is because it’s not significant enough to be considered an ingredient. So most probably batel b’shishim, anyway.
Look, I’m not saying that you should go eat a non-branded lotus cookie. My point is that kashrus got stricter.


I agree that kashrus got stricter, at least in the US and Israel, to an insane amount.

It's unfortunate since some things are actual issues whereas others it's unnecessary (e.g. people not knowing that plain, unenriched rice is kosher without a hechsher).

I'm not sure where you are getting your information though. A lard-greased cookie sheet would not be batel b'shishim. That's why you have to burn out aluminum pans that don't have reliable certifications (at minimum line it with something else). Most pans outside of the US do not have reliable certification and that's what the frum communities there do (Argentina comes to mind). Processing agents are an issue since not all of them are chemicals. It can be something as simple as an oil based barrel lining and yet be an actual kashrus concern.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 7:51 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
Just FYI if they had the same ingredients, and nothing different, then it couldn’t have been pure tried.


Sure could have. They were using non kosher lines. The same steam that cooked the other varieties of soup cans on the other lines at the same time is used to cook these cans. Pure treif, no difference of ingredients necessarily.

That's just off the top of my head with the little understanding I "chapped" about the complexities of the plant that my husband had gone to.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 8:11 pm
cbsp wrote:
Sure could have. They were using non kosher lines. The same steam that cooked the other varieties of soup cans on the other lines at the same time is used to cook these cans. Pure treif, no difference of ingredients necessarily.

That's just off the top of my head with the little understanding I "chapped" about the complexities of the plant that my husband had gone to.

But then it’s not the exact same ingredients. That steam is not the same steam used on the kosher cans.
(I’m not arguing whether it’s kosher or not, just saying it’s not exactly the same.)
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 8:14 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
But then it’s not the exact same ingredients. That steam is not the same steam used on the kosher cans.
(I’m not arguing whether it’s kosher or not, just saying it’s not exactly the same.)


The cans are sealed. Legally they don't have to list what other cans are processed at the same time.

Halachically it can make a huge difference if the water in the system isn't pagum.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 8:41 pm
English3 wrote:
Women used to wear long flowing skirts it is only recently that women wear short skirts and pants


In those days they also showed cleavage though.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 8:51 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
In those days they also showed cleavage though.

I’m thinking the women in the dessert didn’t show much cleavage....my grandfather was a 7th generation yerushalmi. The pictures we have of his family- parents, grandparents, other relatives- all have the women wearing flowy clothing, and no cleavage is showing.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 26 2021, 9:44 pm
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
It’s definitely true. I’ll ask my husband when he comes home to clarify, but we actually have had similar conversations.
My grandfather was one of the mashgichim of a popular kashrus agency, and he says it all the time. Kashrus got stricter. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, just a fact. Most of the time, there’s a difference in hechsher vs no hechsher for just-in-case purposes, which rarely rarely happen. And sometimes, things don’t have a hechsher for no reason at all. You know how many times he’s gone into a factory to see if he can put a hechsher on a product, and he saw absolutely zero things wrong with production?
And there are food products that are so obviously not processed with anything sketchy, for example certified vegan products, that don’t have a hechsher. Those would be considered totally ok 40 years ago, but now because of all the stringencies and kashrus agencies, they’re not.
Krispy Kreme across the country uses the same exact ingredients in every single shop, and not every single one is certified.
There are other products, like garbage bags and foil, that some people will only buy with a hechsher. That’s also a new thing.


The strictness is not due to hilchos being invented or chumros added on. It's that the agencies have become more established and are now able to focus on areas of halacha that were glossed over initially.

I agree that there are many products that have a hechsher "just because" (garbage bags? Maybe so they can use for rising challah dough. Scratching Head Foils I can hear the concern with the oils, but many hold it's not necessary.) And I agree that there are definitely classes of food items that don't necessarily need a hechsher.

But to lump a food establishment like Krispy Kreme into that mix??? Shows there's so much info lacking on what that entails we're not even talking the same language.

And vegan - assuming they're checking for bugs, you still can run into yayin nesach, bishul akum, establishments open on shabbos (if a restaurant), chometz not properly dealt with on Pesach (if owners are Jewish), etc.

Our physical lives have significantly improved in quality over the last century due to advances in scientific knowledge and technology. Why is it viewed as nefarious when kashrus agencies also bring up their standards so that we're following halacha in a l'chatchilah manner rather than relying on every kullah (as used to be necessary so that people wouldn't starve)?
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