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Children want to know why our relatives don't dress tznius
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amother




Yellow
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:56 am
We have the opposite. We dress very standard MO, no socks in the summer, sleeves above the elbow, skirts to the knee, I cover my hair, no pants or sleeveless.
A few very yeshivish families moved into our neighborhood and DD keeps asking me why the girls are wearing tights and long sleeves when it's 99 degrees.
I just answer that everyone does things differently and that's what they prefer.
Same answer if she would ask me why our relatives drive on Shabbos or wear tank tops and shorts.
We all do things differently, this is what we do in our family.
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juggling




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 1:56 am
This is a hard situation, because you don't want to legitimize what they're doing, but you also don't want your child to disrespect them. For small children just keep it simple and nonjudgmental. Different people do different things, it isn't our place to judge. If they press and ask why they can't also dress like their relatives, say this is what our family does. When they get a bit older and can see things in a more nuanced way, they will be able to understand that we can respect people even if we disagree with things they do, and that we don't judge other people even when we disagree with their actions.
Please don't say anything judgy or condescending to small children about their relatives. You're not doing your kids any favors by teaching them to be holier-than-thou.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 7:27 am
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
I grew up like this. No, we didn't ask our rav about it. And he didn't talk to the community about it, probably because we wouldn't have listened. We just assumed people who did dress skirts only etc were frummies. And I was in high school before anyone I trusted told me differently.

"Everyone does things differently" may be necessary for the young kids now. But some point, you are going to need to let them know that there is a halachic box, and that there are many variations inside of it, but some things that are commonplace but are not. I definitely support waiting until they are of an age that they wouldn't repeat it. But you would have the same issue with non-frum- nobody would want to be told that.

Btw, swimming on Shabbos does have a possible halachic allowance, but you have to do a bunch of things correctly. I was very surprised to see it and did some research.


Exactly the situation I am talking about. Thank you for your perspective.
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Shuly




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 9:02 am
Please don't legitimize people not following halacha - that's the opposite of chinuch.

Either say I don't know or say:
They didn't get to go to a yeshiva/bais yaakov like you do so they didn't learn what the Torah says about tznius. It's sad for them that they don't get to do this mitzvah but we don't want to make them feel bad about so we won't mention it to them.
B"H you get to keep the mitzvah of tznius and we're so proud of you!
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 9:12 am
Shuly wrote:
Please don't legitimize people not following halacha - that's the opposite of chinuch.

Either say I don't know or say:
They didn't get to go to a yeshiva/bais yaakov like you do so they didn't learn what the Torah says about tznius. It's sad for them that they don't get to do this mitzvah but we don't want to make them feel bad about so we won't mention it to them.
B"H you get to keep the mitzvah of tznius and we're so proud of you!

Making them into nebachs isn’t a good idea. And you don’t want the children looking down on them either. Saying “different people do different things” or “not everyone holds the same way” isn’t giving them legitimacy. It’s teaching your kids how to respect people who do things differently.
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amother




Gray
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 9:13 am
I also include in this discussion not making other people feel bad if they do things differently than us - that's what they decided, so that's what they do. But we shouldn't say anything that might make them feel bad about it. (and we make sure to have the discussions before these things come up if possible!) When they get older the discussion is different
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juggling




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 9:14 am
Shuly wrote:
Please don't legitimize people not following halacha - that's the opposite of chinuch.

Either say I don't know or say:
They didn't get to go to a yeshiva/bais yaakov like you do so they didn't learn what the Torah says about tznius. It's sad for them that they don't get to do this mitzvah but we don't want to make them feel bad about so we won't mention it to them.
B"H you get to keep the mitzvah of tznius and we're so proud of you!

I absolutely disagree with you. Teaching kids not to judge is not legitimizing anything. It's educating your kids to be humble and not haughty. But of course you're entitled to your perspective Wink
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amother




Natural
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 9:18 am
Is it just me or are some of these responses super smug and condescending.

I'm on board with a simple: this is what we do in our family.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 9:36 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Is it just me or are some of these responses super smug and condescending.

I'm on board with a simple: this is what we do in our family.


I would guess those posters don't have friends or family in this situation. Therefore they might not realize the ramifications.
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imasinger




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 10:23 am
I do have to wonder what those relatives are saying to their kids about your lifestyle as well. Maybe all the grownups could have a chat.
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juggling




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 10:29 am
imasinger wrote:
I do have to wonder what those relatives are saying to their kids about your lifestyle as well. Maybe all the grownups could have a chat.

Well said 👍
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 10:30 am
imasinger wrote:
I do have to wonder what those relatives are saying to their kids about your lifestyle as well. Maybe all the grownups could have a chat.


Not really sure what you are implying
I don't think our relatives are badmouthing us. They probably just say oh they're much more religious (like the teachers in the school)
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 10:50 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Not really sure what you are implying
I don't think our relatives are badmouthing us. They probably just say oh they're much more religious (like the teachers in the school)


If so, just say your relatives are not as religious. End of story.
ETA - unless you think they will be insulted by this. Some would. It depends on their style. Personally, I am on the liberal side of modern orthodoxy and wouldn't mind if someone said I was less religious. I consider myself less religious. But there are those who believe they are just as religious but in a different way - and they might be insulted.
You need to know who you are dealing with.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 11:54 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
Different rabbanim do hold different things are permissible.


OP specifically said " I'm talking about shorts, sleeveless, bikinis. "

I highly doubt that a Rav told them this is permitted.

So I think it is wrong to mislead children into thinking that some Rabbonim permit
women to wear shorts and bikinis in front of men.


Last edited by #BestBubby on Mon, May 03 2021, 12:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 11:56 am
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
We have the opposite. We dress very standard MO, no socks in the summer, sleeves above the elbow, skirts to the knee, I cover my hair, no pants or sleeveless.
A few very yeshivish families moved into our neighborhood and DD keeps asking me why the girls are wearing tights and long sleeves when it's 99 degrees.
I just answer that everyone does things differently and that's what they prefer.
Same answer if she would ask me why our relatives drive on Shabbos or wear tank tops and shorts.
We all do things differently, this is what we do in our family.


This answer makes it sound like keeping the Torah is optional - everyone do what you want.

Then a child might Ch"V think that keeping Shobbos or marrying a Jew is optional.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 11:56 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
If so, just say your relatives are not as religious. End of story.
ETA - unless you think they will be insulted by this. Some would. It depends on their style. Personally, I am on the liberal side of modern orthodoxy and wouldn't mind if someone said I was less religious. I consider myself less religious. But there are those who believe they are just as religious but in a different way - and they might be insulted.
You need to know who you are dealing with.


Right. I'll have to think about it.
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amother




Honeydew
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:00 pm
Ok
My relatives when I was growing up weren't frum and didn't keep anything
Parents B T

And I really see nothing wrong with unfortunately they don't know better.
and if they're walking around in bikinis, it's hopefully just that they don't know better. No MO rebbetzin does that. I know MO rebbetzins.

Telling kids we do we there do they is what you do with we like chinese, they like mexican food. Not halacha. It's bad chinuch.

Btw, we Don't constantly ask our parents abt out relatives. It was undrrstood. Maybe we asked when we were really littlw. No, we didn't talk about it to our relatives.

And we all love each other
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:05 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
OP specifically said " I'm talking about shorts, sleeveless, bikinis. "

I highly doubt that a Rav told them this is permitted.

So I think it is wrong to mislead children into thinking that some Rabbonim permit
women to wear shorts and bikinis in front of men.

The point is not whether or it they are following a rav, that’s not any business of OP’s or her children. The point is that OP doesn’t want her children to think that it’s ok to be disrespectful to or about people who do things differently. Respect is not condoning.
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juggling




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:16 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
This answer makes it sound like keeping the Torah is optional - everyone do what you want.

Then a child might Ch"V think that keeping Shobbos or marrying a Jew is optional.

I think our kids are smarter than that. They can understand that *we* believe it's an obligation, but not everyone shares that belief for themselves. We can broadcast this to our kids, without broadcasting condescension for the poor, uneducated relatives. This is not going to cause our kids to question what they have been taught at home.
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amother




Chocolate
 

Post Mon, May 03 2021, 12:19 pm
It does not have to be condescending- as a bt I can tell you it is the truth that we did not know any better and did not have the benefit of frum education.
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