What happens if Mashiach doesn’t come by year 6000?

zaq

Mon, May 03 2021, 4:50 am

Any calculation or prediction of a time and date is going to be wrong. If mashiach doesn't come by the year 6000--and why are you even concerned, as you, your children, and your children's children will have long since left this vale of tears--then the earth will continue spinning on its axis, the planets will continue revolving around the sun, and humankind will continue doing its utmost to self-destruct as it has been doing since Creation.

What scares me is the potential for G-d forbid a Jonestown-type or Lev-Tahor-type disaster, in which a charismatic fraud like Shabbtai Zvi, Jacob Frank or Shlomo Helbrans sets himself up as either the Messiah or G-d and influences masses of gullible people who believe that the world will end in the year 6000 to self-destruct in that year in one way or another.

Last edited by zaq on Mon, May 03 2021, 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total

realsilver

Mon, May 03 2021, 4:36 pm

zaq wrote:

Shlomo helbrans is not alive bh.

zaq

Mon, May 03 2021, 6:30 pm

realsilver wrote:

Shlomo helbrans is not alive bh.

Neither is Shabbtai Zvi
(1626-1676) or Jacob Frank (1726-1791). I mention these two because they practiced in times and places when Jews were severely oppressed and persecuted. Bad times cause yearning for redemption and Messianic fervor to peak, and this is when people are most vulnerable to false Messiahs and similar frauds. Helbrans I mention because he was a modern fraud whom most imas, regardless of their grounding in the history of false Messiahs, will recognize as a dangerous cult leader.

Choirmistress

Tue, Mar 01 2022, 2:13 pm

MitzadSheini wrote:

No 165 into the future... Like 5781 + 165 ...I'll try I find a link to the paper

So, MitzadSheini, that means that since we are now a few months past when you wrote that, and it is now 5782, Moshiach could come (by which I mean that Eliyahu haNavi zachur latov could announce his identity) today (or whenever you are individually reading this), or in a few decades (which is what is meant by "b'itah achishena"), but no more than 53 -- er, 52 2/3 -- years from now.
Not a bad prospect to contemplate.
However, I also agree with the poster who wrote that she considers the terrible things going on in the world to be chevlei Moshiach.
The most common mashal is that the world is in a state of turmoil very much like a boiling pot. When the water reaches the boiling point, its violent churning stops and the surface becomes almost level.
Things to watch for: the face of the generation's being like the face of a dog (I.e., insolent) -- check;
multiple births increasing -- check;
more and scattered conflicts and violence -- check;
an Arab country threatening to destroy the world -- a few years ago already (Gulf War, anybody?);
the evil "opening" (beginning) in the north (Yechezkel? Yirmiyahu?) -- just check Russia's position relative to Eretz Yisroel's;
many more people than before making spiritual quests, investigations, and journeys -- check (scads of people are now into spiritualism and mysticism unlike ten or even five years ago);
increase in natural and manmade disasters -- check times dozens in each of the past few years -- tsunamis, floods, earthquakes, wildfires, nuclear (near-)meltdowns, hazardous waste dumpings, etc.;
scarcity of resources, especially food -- check;
pestilence -- hmmm, what have daily TV, radio and print news broadcasts/headlines been full of for the past two and a half years?
I'm no Lubavitcher, but it doesn't take one to remember the Rebbe's statement that ben Dovid is coming "at at" (okay, so a little TOO slowly for most of humanity).

MitzadSheini

Tue, Mar 01 2022, 2:47 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

Sorry this would be really nice but no, not necessarily because as I said above a couple of times the whole 6,000 year thing is only a SINGLE VIEW in the Gemara and there are other views. In addition (as I think I said up thread) I'm pretty sure Rav Schwab (who did the whole 165 year calculation) was not in favor of the 6,000 thing precisely because what happens if 6,000 comes and Moshiach doesn't??

In general, it is not good to "calculate the end".

The tribe of Ephraim miscalculated the geula from mitzrayim by 30 years and a lot of people died.

One of the reasons given for Achashverosh had the party was because he thought he had calculated the time for the rebuilding of the BhM and when this had not happened he celebrated.

I am surprised no one has quoted the statement of Rav Moshe Sternbuch from 2014 concerning the Vilna Gain and he comments of Russia invading Crimea and Constantinople and Shabbas clothes (you can Google... It's very interesting).

I am a fan of Rav Henkin, who, when asked about whether we have to believe that Moshiach could come "kol yom" ie every day, said words to effect that every day with need to BELIEVE that he WILL come.... At some point. But no necessarily on that day.

iyar

Tue, Mar 01 2022, 3:15 pm

sequoia wrote:

Nothing will happen.

Why do people care about predictions for the far future? Judaism was always about ethical behavior in this world, and basta.

I didn't notice this was an old thread and was relieved to see Sequoia.
What a disappointment.
I hope you're safe and well Sequoia and will find a peaceful moment to join us soon.

Judaism, as you said, is about ethical behavior, but that's not basta, not at all, there has to be more.
Ethical behavior is self understood and accepted by all except tyrants and psychopaths. Judaism is about behaving according to Hashem's word, the Torah, which is sometimes logical and obvious and sometimes a deep mystery. Judaism is about belief in Hashem and belief in the words of the chachamim, an emunah that we have to find in a place much deeper than ethics formulated in a finite, human brain. There are non-Jews who behave ethically and morally, we give them credit for that and admire their integrity. As Jews we have to behave the same way, but there's a lot more expected from us. And so as not to derail this thread completely, one of the things expected from us is a solid belief that Mashiach will come, though we should avoid trying to calculate the exact time of his arrival.

I hope you can join the discussion again Sequoia, from a warm, comfortable, quiet place, and I hope we soon get the answers to all our unanswerable questions.

imorethanamother

Tue, Mar 01 2022, 3:34 pm

yksraya wrote:

What I believe is, that after 6000 will be L'usid Lovo. Every 1000 years is like a day, so before 6000 is friday, and then will be the yom shekulo shabbos. Mashiach will hopefully come very very soon.

I feel like the tragedies that are happening are the chavlei mashiach.

I dislike it when people talk about the tragedies being some kind of impetus for Mashiach coming. Like there haven’t been tragedies the past five millennia?

iyar

Tue, Mar 01 2022, 3:39 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

I dislike it when people talk about the tragedies being some kind of impetus for Mashiach coming. Like there haven’t been tragedies the past five millennia?

Agreed. We find ourselves davening for him when things are hard, but there's no reason he can't come on a beautiful sunny day when the world's at peace and all our kids are behaving and happy.

pause

Tue, Mar 01 2022, 7:21 pm

iyar wrote:

Agreed. We find ourselves davening for him when things are hard, but there's no reason he can't come on a beautiful sunny day when the world's at peace and all our kids are behaving and happy.

Absolutely!
It says
ופתאם יבוא אל־היכלו האדון אשר־אתם מבקשים ומלאך הברית אשר־אתם חפצים הנה־בא
that he will come suddenly, unexpectedly when we aren't expecting him. We need to wait for him and believe that he will come every day, but all those times when people say, NOW for sure he'll come... no. He will come out of the blue.