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Onaas Devarim. Join me in learning
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 8:02 am
Since the Meron tragedy, I've been casting around for something to do, to change. Meaningful.
I noticed that we (the general we) on this site, in our regular lives, all over just don't talk nicelyto and about each other.
We call each other names, put each other down. If someone comments, then it's "don't be so sensitive".
I've started programs with my kids and now I'm inviting all the women across spectrums to join.
In this week's Parsha, Parshas Bhar, the Passuk says Lo Sonu Ish Es Amiso Viyareisa Meilokecha.
Simply put, you may not hurt, cause pain in any way to any Jew- man, woman, child, adult. And fear Hashem. Because He knows your thoughts and feelings.
Anyone want to join me.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 8:11 am
I like this. How do you propose to do it? Post halachos daily? Other?
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 8:27 am
I don't know any logistics.
Im just throwing it out there.
There's an ad in one of the Lakewood publications that anyone who is interested in a small kuntris on the topic- written in English, with sources should email to hilchosod@gmail.com
It's a well-written publication, but even though the guy said he'd love for it to be spread and passed, I still don't feel comfortable posting the full pdf document.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 8:28 am
I would like to join as well.
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 8:30 am
Again, I have no idea how we would do this.
Let's brainstorm.
I just know that I want to work on Onaas Devarim.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 8:33 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
I would like to join as well.


I should add, though, that a lot of what I read from the frum world, for example about the Meron tragedy, is at odds with what I believe. So depending on the materials, I may be better off not doing this with you. One of my kids is learning mussar now — this is at a Modern Orthodox place, but they are starting with the classics of the Mussar movement — so I may ask for some suggestions on what to read and pass them along here.
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cmother




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 8:33 am
How do we join, by committing to talk/write here with respect ?
Always thought that would be so nice, if each message would be valued even if we/one thinks otherwise, why bash someone who has a different mind or view ??
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 8:59 am
I found this article / source sheet (link below) on sefaria.org. I will start here. I can only do one thing a day -- I know myself -- so I'll come back tomorrow to report.

https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/57710?lang=bi
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 9:01 am
I'm not sure how to do this exactly, but I'll start with basics.
The Passuk says Lo Sonu. This is referring to the issur dioraysa of a person hurting, verbally, another yid. Teasing, degrading, anyone. Children are also under this category. You may give mussar to a child, but not in a harsh, demeaning, nasty way, and you may not make the child feel shamed.
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 9:02 am
An earlier Passuk (Passuk yud daled) says Al Sonu- referring to hurting with money.(Rashi).
However many meforshim say that Onaas Devarim is worse than Onaas Mamon because money can always be repaid.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 9:11 am
keym wrote:
An earlier Passuk (Passuk yud daled) says Al Sonu- referring to hurting with money.(Rashi).
However many meforshim say that Onaas Devarim is worse than Onaas Mamon because money can always be repaid.


Money can always be repaid, true. But the consequences of not having necessary money can be terrible, and cannot always be reversed. For example, a person may not be able to repay a loan, and get their credit ranking downgraded, which can affect that person for years. A family can lose a shidduch over loss of money. A person may feel shame at having to ask for a tuition discount -- the request for a discount can itself be followed by ona'at devarim from the tuition board --- that can't be remedied.

I can already see I'll have problems here. My inclination is to say that "money can always be repaid" is a simplistic statement. I know that many on imamother would say that I should say "I don't understand."

One of the reasons I left the Daf Yomi discussion last year was that I couldn't express myself freely: there was one person, who had originally argued against women learning Daf Yomi, who was always policing everyone's statements. It was counterproductive for me.

I'll try to be tactful if I continue here.

(I tried to cut and paste the article from Sefaria here, but it didn't work. Perhaps someone else can do it.)
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 9:16 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Money can always be repaid, true. But the consequences of not having necessary money can be terrible, and cannot always be reversed. For example, a person may not be able to repay a loan, and get their credit ranking downgraded, which can affect that person for years. A family can lose a shidduch over loss of money. A person may feel shame at having to ask for a tuition discount -- the request for a discount can itself be followed by ona'at devarim from the tuition board --- that can't be remedied.

I can already see I'll have problems here. My inclination is to say that "money can always be repaid" is a simplistic statement. I know that many on imamother would say that I should say "I don't understand."

One of the reasons I left the Daf Yomi discussion last year was that I couldn't express myself freely: there was one person, who had originally argued against women learning Daf Yomi, who was always policing everyone's statements. It was counterproductive for me.

I'll try to be tactful if I continue here.

(I tried to cut and paste the article from Sefaria here, but it didn't work. Perhaps someone else can do it.)


I hear. I'd love sources to back up what you're saying.

But either way, my personal feeling that debating which is worse money or people turns counterproductive.
I think focussing on the issurim involved with only our words may be more focused and therefore more beneficial.

For example, like I said earlier Children.
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 9:18 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Money can always be repaid, true. But the consequences of not having necessary money can be terrible, and cannot always be reversed. For example, a person may not be able to repay a loan, and get their credit ranking downgraded, which can affect that person for years. A family can lose a shidduch over loss of money. A person may feel shame at having to ask for a tuition discount -- the request for a discount can itself be followed by ona'at devarim from the tuition board --- that can't be remedied.

I can already see I'll have problems here. My inclination is to say that "money can always be repaid" is a simplistic statement. I know that many on imamother would say that I should say "I don't understand."

One of the reasons I left the Daf Yomi discussion last year was that I couldn't express myself freely: there was one person, who had originally argued against women learning Daf Yomi, who was always policing everyone's statements. It was counterproductive for me.

I'll try to be tactful if I continue here.

(I tried to cut and paste the article from Sefaria here, but it didn't work. Perhaps someone else can do it.)


And joy, consider emailing the above email to acquire the kuntris. There are footnoted sources so it provides as a starting point to work from.
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Miri1




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 9:53 am
I would be interested.
I don't consider myself brash with my speech, but there are so many times I tell myself I could have said it better. (And probably plenty of times I was not be aware that I caused hurt)

Language can be negative, it can be neutral and it can be building. I find that even if I'm not hurting with my speech, I'm probably not building as much as I could be. Rather than leaving speech as a functional tool, I'd like to try to turn it into a building tool.

And certainly the first step would be to become more aware and to abandon any destructive use of language.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, May 05 2021, 12:31 pm
Miri1 wrote:
I would be interested.
I don't consider myself brash with my speech, but there are so many times I tell myself I could have said it better. (And probably plenty of times I was not be aware that I caused hurt)

Language can be negative, it can be neutral and it can be building. I find that even if I'm not hurting with my speech, I'm probably not building as much as I could be. Rather than leaving speech as a functional tool, I'd like to try to turn it into a building tool.

And certainly the first step would be to become more aware and to abandon any destructive use of language.


Miri, I think the point of learning and working on oneself is that it helps internalize the changes that one needs to make in order to successfully change one’s actions.

At least for me, learning a bunch of halachot doesn’t really help much. Speech is so automatic that it’s hard to have a filter that keeps one from saying what one shouldn’t say. It’s more productive to figure out how to change one’s attitudes and thought processes so that one isn’t thinking about making the hurtful comments to begin with. That’s why I personally think that working on myself to be more empathetic, as one does when one is studying Mussar, is a good place to start. I will discuss with my mussar-learning child at some point today to pick up some pointers. (My kids are naturally nicer than I am; I have learned a lot from them.)
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advocate




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, May 06 2021, 7:40 am
Thank you OP! I did write to Reb Grunhut at the halachosod@gmail address.

He encourages us to learn and to share the kuntris.

"Copying of this booklet is strongly encouraged for private and classroom use
in order to further Torah study throughout the world.
Please forward any comments, suggestions, corrections or requests for additional copies to
Camp Agudah  42 Broadway  14th Floor  New York, NY 10004  212-797-8172
email: campagudah@campagudah.org"

Here is the first entry in the first section:
https://I.imgur.com/f1VzAtI.png
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advocate




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, May 06 2021, 8:00 pm
Bump, for the evening crowd. Happy to have people pm me if you want to make a group...
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advocate




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, May 09 2021, 7:22 pm
Here is the second part....

https://I.imgur.com/hooum9f.png

I have read the Kuntras and found it helpful, though the examples are designed for boys in camp.

I see there is an old post on this topic, and I'll check out additional sources!

Happy Imamother Day!
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advocate




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 5:52 pm
Kuntras 3 from Camp Agudah, Onaas Devarim

https://I.imgur.com/8cRqadT.png

Also:

From Sticks and Stones by Miriam Adahan

'Do not wrong one another' Vayikra 25:14

"This refers to causing one pain in financial matters, such as an employer who does not pay his workers promptly; a borrower who does not repay a loan promptly, one who writes a check without bank coverage; a merchant who lies about the quality of his merchandise or charges exorbitant rates, etc."
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 7:50 pm
Advocate, these links are blocked. I can ask for them to be opened but it's a bit tedious.
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