How is it legal? | Imamother

amother

Scarlet

Thu, May 13 2021, 1:00 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Your Freedom ends at injecting a substance into my daughter's arm that has RISK of
death or permanent injury.

Nobody has the right to FORCE RISK on another person.

If your daughter is afraid, let her take classes online.

Hashem has brought us to the point where anyone who does NOT want to get vaccinated can take their classes online.
You & your family have the right to not vaccinate, you no longer have the right to get other people sick. BH

amother

Mustard

Thu, May 13 2021, 1:14 pm

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

If those other people are vaccinated, which they obviously are if they are attending in person class, then they are protected and will not get sick. Unless you think the vaccine does not work and they are not protected?

I will be taking the vaccine soon when I am in my second trimester. I will have no problem being around unvaccinated people and do not think they should be excluded from anything. If I am fully immune then it is scientifically impossible for them to get me sick

amother

Lilac

Thu, May 13 2021, 2:28 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

Can you explain to me why I can't drive after drinking? I'm invited to a wedding -- the first big, post vaccine one -- and want to enjoy myself, except that I have to drive home. Everyone wears seatbelts. If you believe they work, then even if my driving is a little erratic, its no big deal. The ONLY reason you care about me driving drunk is because you don't think seatbelts work.

amother

Lilac

Thu, May 13 2021, 2:35 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

And vaccines can kill or injure those who don't fear it too.

Bottom line: Covid has risks.

Vaccine has risks

BUT young people's risks from Covid are close to zero.

Preliminary data from early in the pandemic suggested that as many as 1 in 5 people with covid-19 could end up with heart inflammation, known as myocarditis, which has been linked to abnormal heart rhythms and sudden cardiac death.

Screening studies conducted by college athletic programs over the past year have generally found lower numbers. But these studies have been too small to provide an accurate measure of how likely athletes are to develop heart problems after covid, and how serious those heart issues may be.

Among professional athletes, out of 789 screened, 30 (about 4%) showed some cardiac abnormality in those initial tests and were referred for a cardiac MRI to provide a better picture of their heart. Five of those -- about .6% of all athletes screened -- showed inflammation of the heart that sidelined them for the remainder of their seasons.

And these are people generally in top shape.

But hey, what's a little heart damage when compared to a few conspiracy theories.

amother

Mustard

Thu, May 13 2021, 2:39 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Nope sorry this comparison doesn't work at all

If you drink you are in danger of crashing into other people. Seatbelts do work, and they definitely reduce injuries and deaths in car crashes. Statistically however, more people are injured/killed even when wearing seatbelts, compared to the number who are catching covid from fully vaccinated people.

Why dont you look up these two statistics:
1. Number of people who are wearing seatbelts and are injured/killed in accidents due to a drunk driver
2. Number of people who catch covid from a fully vaccinated person

Wanna bet that the answer to #2 is probably zero, and if not then very very close to zero. As opposed to #2 which had a much higher incidence

Do you think you are more likely to kill someone if you drive drunk, or go around unmasked after vaccination?

If you are vaccinated you are not a danger to others. You cannot spread disease to them. Do you really believe that you can still spread covid if you are fully vaccinated?

amother

Lilac

Thu, May 13 2021, 2:58 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

You're purposely misconstruing.

If you believe that seatbelts work, then you're not worried about me hitting you. You'll be fine, my insurance will pay for your car, all is well.

Moreover, I honestly don't care what happens to people who purposely choose not to vaccinate. They've made their decisions, and the consequences to them are up to them. If they die in numbers commensurate with the deaths reported from covid thus far -- .17% of the US population -- and also suffer permanent heart damage, they chose that.

But I do care that vaccines are not 100% effective, and care about people who CANNOT be vaccinated for medical reasons, or who have diminished immune systems. THEY need to be protected.

amother

Olive

Thu, May 13 2021, 3:13 pm

amother [ Black ] wrote:

BTW, when it comes to the vadei/safek debate, there is no proof that the vaccine causes harm, so that's a maybe, but there is proof that the virus causes harm.

What about the 28 people that got blood clots after the j&j vaccine and it was proven that it was due to the vaccine?And that's only the 28 that they admitted to....I will assume there were more.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, May 13 2021, 3:52 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

She said there isn't proof the vaccine causes harm. If it was proven that the j&j vaccine can cause blood clots that can/did result in death, does that not constitute harm?

it wasn't 'proven'.... but I understand what you are saying.

If both Pfizer and J&J are available in abundant supply - I can't see why any Rav would recommend to take J&J.

amother

Mustard

Thu, May 13 2021, 3:59 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

According to the logic of your last paragraph, you should have been masking every single flu season. There are immune compromised people who cannot take the flu vax, and they need to be protected.

Furthermore, immune compromised people can be in danger even from the common cold. You are not vaccinated against the common cold so you are a danger to them

I keep seeing this as the reason to mask after being fully vaxxed- because of the immuno compromised people- but realize 2 things
1. This is a tiny minority. The vast majority of people can get vaccinated. That is not to say immuno compromised people are not important (I know one such person who I care about tremendously), just that you really arent likely to be constantly bumping into immuno compromised people.
2. According to the logic that we need to mask for immuno compromised, in that case we should have been masking since time immemorial and should continue to mask forever, because many diseases are dangerous to these people

Anyway someone else just started a thread that the CDC just said you do not need to mask indoors if u are fully vaxxed. Are you going to be more strict than the cdc?

amother

Lilac

Thu, May 13 2021, 4:03 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

What about the 28 people that got blood clots after the j&j vaccine and it was proven that it was due to the vaccine?And that's only the 28 that they admitted to....I will assume there were more.

So far, about 8 million doses of the J&J vaccine have been administered, with 3 deaths from blood clots. That's .0000375% risk of death, .00035% risk of a blood clot.

There have been about 32.8 million reported covid cases in the US, with 583,000 covid deaths. That's about a 1.7% death rate. Even if you assume the actual death rate was 1/4 that's still a .44% death rate -- thousands of times higher than what you're expressing fear about.

If you were told that you could take you could give your child one of two treatments. In the first, there's a 3 in 10 million chance of death, and the other a 4 in a thousand, which would you choose?

L K

Thu, May 13 2021, 5:31 pm

I wonder why nobody is mentioning some of us who already have a tendency to increased clotting and are therefore legitimately concerned about vaccine effects.
Anyone dare say we must subject ourselves to vaccination, or else it shows were selfish paranoid conspiracy dudes?

Just like there’s an acknowledgement of patients with allergic reaction histories.

ETA: not that I think anyone should be forced to vaccinate, as I agree that consequences are unknown.

Last edited by L K on Thu, May 13 2021, 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Lilac

Thu, May 13 2021, 5:33 pm

L K wrote:

IMNSHO that is an issue that should be discussed with your physician, in the same way that you would discuss BC pills, which have a much greater risk, with your doctor.

The good news is that there is a choice here. J&J is a traditional vaccine. For covid, you can choose an mRNA vaccine that doesn't have the same -- albeit minute -- risks.