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Why do some against the covid vacc believe debunkable ideas?
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:17 pm
Purple, I just changed the title and I'm happy to change it again.

I really want to hear from everyone's perspective.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:21 pm
Kiwi13 wrote:
Concerning statistics, you can tell any story you want by including this, not including that, defining terms ever so slightly differently... and that applies to the “anti-vaxxers” too (but that label in this instance is highly offensive and presumptive). I’m not blindly drinking anybody’s Koolaid. I have retained the lost art of critical thinking.


I agree with this Kiwi13. Yet some of those skewed statistics out there are so easily debunkable. I just don't understand why someone would accept or spread them.
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amother




Purple
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:23 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Purple, I just changed the title and I'm happy to change it again.

I really want to hear from everyone's perspective.

This topic has been overdiscussed so not sure if any title would make a difference. Either way, explain how the fact that there are no long term studies and the actual study has been unblinded is "debunkable". Or the fact that the thousands of reports of adverse reactions and death that is being dismissed and invalidated to the point where we are told there are zero side effects or deaths from the vaccine (which is unheard of in the medical field) is "debunkable" as well. Or how the FDA would be able to approve a vaccine that has no long term studies.
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amother




Aqua
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:28 pm
The vast majority are just skeptical for the reasons mentioned. The few who believe in conspiracy theories are really a minority. There is always such a minority when it comes to anything. I don't understand why everyone is focusing on that minority.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:32 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
This topic has been overdiscussed so not sure if any title would make a difference. Either way, explain how the fact that there are no long term studies and the actual study has been unblinded is "debunkable". Or the fact that the thousands of reports of adverse reactions and death that is being dismissed and invalidated to the point where we are told there are zero side effects or deaths from the vaccine (which is unheard of in the medical field) is "debunkable" as well. Or how the FDA would be able to approve a vaccine that has no long term studies.


There are many threads discussing this all over the site, that's not what I'm asking. I can read plenty of threads advocating views on both sides of the coin. Every person migrates to the answers with their own confirmation bias.

What I'm trying to understand is how peoples' feelings are so strong, they accept disproven ideas or obvious untruths.
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amother




Purple
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:38 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
There are many threads discussing this all over the site, that's not what I'm asking. I can read plenty of threads advocating views on both sides of the coin. Every person migrates to the answers with their own confirmation bias.

What I'm trying to understand is how peoples' feelings are so strong, they accept disproven ideas or obvious untruths.

Not sure how any of this answers what I asked but how do you feel that they have been "disproven" or are "obvious untruths"?
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amother




Brown
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:39 pm
Kiwi13 wrote:
I’m not into conspiracy theories. BUT some things are blatant. Don’t tell me you’ve “debunked” claims of fertility issues or anything else based on insufficient evidence. Insufficient evidence means you don’t have enough to prove it one way OR THE OTHER. I agree with the posters who are skeptical over lack of honesty. This disease AND its cure have been weaponized as a tool of compliance. That’s an issue for another million threads. We’ve been down that road already.


This is where the confusion lies. When something that is illogically built on lies and distortions, there's not much you can offer as evidence. The people who make illogical connections don't accept the logic that shows them the truth.

The idea that the vaccine causes fertility was suggested by those who have a misunderstanding of the science. It was based off the spike protein. The mRNA in the vaccines codes for the spike protein and the human body would create antibodies for it. The human body has its own spike protein, which assists in helping pregnancies implant in the uterus. So when some heard that the body will create antibodies against the virus's spike protein they extrapolated that to mean that it will attack the human spike protein too. But the human spike protein is a different structure and different shape. The antibodies that attack the virus's spike protein won't recognize the human one.

And let's take it a step further. The vaccine inserts the very same mRNA that the virus has. That means the virus itself inserts thousands upon thousands of spike proteins into our system. Our immune system then creates antibodies to attack those spike proteins. It is the very same antibodies that the vaccine produces. So if you're worried about the antibodies for vaccine's spike protein, shouldn't you be equally if not more worried about the the very same antibodies that the virus produces.?

The logic behind the whole myth is so faulty. What kind of evidence other than scientific knowledge can one offer for this?
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:44 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Not sure how any of this answers what I asked but how do you feel that they have been "disproven" or are "obvious untruths"?


Just referring to the one about the vacc'd spreading the illness: it goes against everything I've learned in molecular biology.

Or hydroxychloroquine, which people on this site still mention sometimes, which has been shown to have serious side effects. No, I don't think the FDA is holding out on us with that one.

I can list more if you'd like. But that's not the point.
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amother




Brown
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:49 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
MRNA vaccine is unlike any vaccine given before and works in a totally different way and we don't know so much about it. Clearly it doesn't shed in the traditional sense of live vaccine shed. But people are speculating that perhaps being in contact with vaccinated people who are creating these spike proteins can cause symptoms or illness. Frankly, I don't have enough of a science background to fully understand this. My reaction is that it seems far-fetched, but also shouldn't be instantly dismissed either. I did worry about it for a few days. Spoke to my doctor about it and his advice: take your vitamins, continue to eat healthfully and take good care of yourself, and live your life. Worrying about this can only cause stress and make you sick and unless you intend to live under a rock you can't do anything about it anyhow. I haven't thought about it or worried about it again since.

Being skeptical, I can't judge those who are concerned about it. Being pragmatic, I can't lose myself in worrying about it.


But we do. mRNA is not a new thing nor is it any new component. mRNA has been tested and studied in animals and mRNA is found in the hundreds of thousands in every single cell. Its not like we're introducing a foreign molecule into the body. Its the same biological component that the body uses for its own mRNA production.

Additionally, the mRNA being introduced does not code for the virus itself. It codes for a small portion of it, the spike protein. The rest of the protein, its pathogenicity and its ability to replicate is non-existent. The virus cannot be contracted from this in a biological sense. One may experience symptoms, I.e. the fever, fatigues, etc. that comes with the immune response to building antibodies to the protein, but the contagion itself does not even exist. Its impossible to transfer it to anyone.
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amother




Red
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:49 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I do have some science background and a claim like this really makes no sense.


You have a science background in the long-term effects of administering MRNA vaccines to human beings?
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amother




Red
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:53 pm
amother [ Brown ] wrote:
But we do. mRNA is not a new thing nor is it any new component. mRNA has been tested and studied in animals and mRNA is found in the hundreds of thousands in every single cell. Its not like we're introducing a foreign molecule into the body. Its the same biological component that the body uses for its own mRNA production.

Additionally, the mRNA being introduced does not code for the virus itself. It codes for a small portion of it, the spike protein. The rest of the protein, its pathogenicity and its ability to replicate is non-existent. The virus cannot be contracted from this in a biological sense. One may experience symptoms, I.e. the fever, fatigues, etc. that comes with the immune response to building antibodies to the protein, but the contagion itself does not even exist. Its impossible to transfer it to anyone.


Injecting MRNA into people as a vaccine is not new? Which fully FDA approved vaccines are on the market utilizing this non-new technique?
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:54 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
You have a science background in the long-term effects of administering MRNA vaccines to human beings?


I agree it's a new vaccine and we don't know everything at all. I have some background in molecular biology and this particular claim shows a basic lack of understanding of viral vectors and viruses.

I really really didn't want this thread to devolve into the mess of all those other threads Sad

and I really appreciated hearing your perspective Red upthread.
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amother




Brown
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 6:58 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
How can it be approved without any long term studies? And why are they dismissing all the reports of adverse reactions and deaths?


The amount of time, resources and manpower devoted to this vaccine rivals any other one. In what time in history was there a worldwide effort to combat one virus. Consider the number of labs working on this, the 16-18 hours shifts they all worked, and the money and materials made available to them.

The only thing that is unknown is if there's any long term effect. Being that the vaccine incorporates previously used materials, with the new addition being the mRNA, there isn't much concern about long term effects. mRNA is universal - most living cells have it. Additionally, mRNA degrades within hours. So while there is always the possibility of something unknown occurring, the risk is really considered to be negligible.

And no one is dismissing adverse reports. They are actually following this very very closely and being examined from all angles. If this vaccine is successful, it throws open a whole new avenue of genetic treatments. The information is critical for our future.
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amother




Brown
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 7:00 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Injecting MRNA into people as a vaccine is not new? Which fully FDA approved vaccines are on the market utilizing this non-new technique?


The idea of injecting genetic materials into our system is not new. Genetic treatments are the latest advancements and are being studied in multiple labs and they're already currently being implemented for diseases.
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amother




Purple
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 7:02 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Just referring to the one about the vacc'd spreading the illness: it goes against everything I've learned in molecular biology.

Or hydroxychloroquine, which people on this site still mention sometimes, which has been shown to have serious side effects. No, I don't think the FDA is holding out on us with that one.

I can list more if you'd like. But that's not the point.

I wont address the hcq since that study has been debunked and the protocol works when taken correctly but as far as the vaccine spreading illness or negative side effects, I had my period for 12 days after being exposed to someone who got the vaccine so yes, I have the right to know what exactly is going into those vaccines that is causing these reactions before I choose to take it myself. Your continued attempts to attack and belittle people like me is the reason why we are still hesitant and makes us question it even more.

And you still havent explained how the fact that there are no long term studies or the fact that the thousands of reports of adverse reactions or death being dismissed actually debunks anything anyone is concerned about.
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amother




Brown
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 7:03 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I agree it's a new vaccine and we don't know everything at all. I have some background in molecular biology and this particular claim shows a basic lack of understanding of viral vectors and viruses.

I really really didn't want this thread to devolve into the mess of all those other threads Sad

and I really appreciated hearing your perspective Red upthread.


Yes, you have it right. The vaccine itself doesn't contain the virus. It contains one small segment of its DNA that codes for ONE protein. That one protein has no pathogenicity and has no capabilities of triggering replication. Its biologically impossible for one to contract COVID from the vaccine.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 7:11 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
And you still havent explained how the fact that there are no long term studies or the fact that the thousands of reports of adverse reactions or death being dismissed actually debunks anything anyone is concerned about.


I didn't address that because as I said before, I understand skepticism on that front.

And I didn't want the thread to turn into a shouting match.

I really just wanted to get down on a personal level.
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amother




Red
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 7:15 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I agree it's a new vaccine and we don't know everything at all. I have some background in molecular biology and this particular claim shows a basic lack of understanding of viral vectors and viruses.

I really really didn't want this thread to devolve into the mess of all those other threads Sad

and I really appreciated hearing your perspective Red upthread.


Then there is no question that you have a far greater understanding of science in general and likely regarding virology, immunology, etc. than I do.

But as much as you and others can say MRNA isn't something new and injecting genetic material isn't new, etc. the fact remains that MRNA vaccines weren't given to people until a few months ago and there are no long term studies on human beings. It doesn't mean it's unsafe, but it's a red flag to me.,

I will also say that I find it suspicious how quickly this vaccine was released when there are so many other diseases that scientists have been working decades and decades to come up with a vaccine and failed. Doesn't mean anything necessarily, but another red flag.

Another issue is feeling like I just don't need a vaccine for this - even if it was safe. I never get the flu shot. I've gotten the flu once only in my adult life. It wasn't fun, but it was over in a few days. No harm done. I'm a healthy woman. It seems odd that I would go inject myself year after year with odd ingredients to avoid getting a flu that I'm unlikely to get anyhow and if I unfortunately did would just be a minor inconvenience.

So, same thought with COVID vax. I had COVID. It wasn't fun. It was harder than when I had flu, admittedly. But it passed. Now I have immunity for.... some period of time. The idea of running to get an experimental vaccine seems to me a bad idea. If it were really FDA approved with true long term studies, I'd say it makes sense for those at risk but not for me. I'm healthy, I survived it without too much trouble, and it's just not something I'm worried about at all.
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amother




Pewter
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 7:16 pm
So many red flags in regard to this vax that pro vax folks are getting skeptical.
Why is it touted as "completely safe?" Why are they recommended for everyone, even young and healthy, and those who've had covid, have antibodies? Why is it being given to children? Why is it advertised so heavily while anything suggesting an agenda gets banned? No magazine wants to put an ad encouraging skepticism in our holy government. Only pro vax ads are allowed. The idiotic fact checking banners on social media on any post with words like covid, immunity, vax... and more but I don't have patience to go on. Why am I getting calls at home to schedule a vax appointment?? Sounds like they're trying very hard to push this, and that makes me very skeptical.
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amother




Brown
 

Post Mon, May 10 2021, 7:17 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
I wont address the hcq since that study has been debunked and the protocol works when taken correctly but as far as the vaccine spreading illness or negative side effects, I had my period for 12 days after being exposed to someone who got the vaccine so yes, I have the right to know what exactly is going into those vaccines that is causing these reactions before I choose to take it myself. Your continued attempts to attack and belittle people like me is the reason why we are still hesitant and makes us question it even more.

And you still havent explained how the fact that there are no long term studies or the fact that the thousands of reports of adverse reactions or death being dismissed actually debunks anything anyone is concerned about.


Please do share. I saw the original studies that lent support, then I saw all the studies (across countries) that showed it had no impact. Being that the drug has significant side effects, its risk outweighs some unknown possibilities. Has there been new studies disproving this? I honestly would like to know, can you please share the source(s)?
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