Why do some against the covid vacc believe debunkable ideas?

amother

Mon, May 10 2021, 7:19 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

Then there is no question that you have a far greater understanding of science in general and likely regarding virology, immunology, etc. than I do.

But as much as you and others can say MRNA isn't something new and injecting genetic material isn't new, etc. the fact remains that MRNA vaccines weren't given to people until a few months ago and there are no long term studies on human beings. It doesn't mean it's unsafe, but it's a red flag to me.,

I will also say that I find it suspicious how quickly this vaccine was released when there are so many other diseases that scientists have been working decades and decades to come up with a vaccine and failed. Doesn't mean anything necessarily, but another red flag.

Another issue is feeling like I just don't need a vaccine for this - even if it was safe. I never get the flu shot. I've gotten the flu once only in my adult life. It wasn't fun, but it was over in a few days. No harm done. I'm a healthy woman. It seems odd that I would go inject myself year after year with odd ingredients to avoid getting a flu that I'm unlikely to get anyhow and if I unfortunately did would just be a minor inconvenience.

So, same thought with COVID vax. I had COVID. It wasn't fun. It was harder than when I had flu, admittedly. But it passed. Now I have immunity for.... some period of time. The idea of running to get an experimental vaccine seems to me a bad idea. If it were really FDA approved with true long term studies, I'd say it makes sense for those at risk but not for me. I'm healthy, I survived it without too much trouble, and it's just not something I'm worried about at all.

Thank you, I appreciate hearing your perspective!

amother

Mon, May 10 2021, 7:21 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

So many red flags in regard to this vax that pro vax folks are getting skeptical.
Why is it touted as "completely safe?" Why are they recommended for everyone, even young and healthy, and those who've had covid, have antibodies? Why is it being given to children? Why is it advertised so heavily while anything suggesting an agenda gets banned? No magazine wants to put an ad encouraging skepticism in our holy government. Only pro vax ads are allowed. The idiotic fact checking banners on social media on any post with words like covid, immunity, vax... and more but I don't have patience to go on. Why am I getting calls at home to schedule a vax appointment?? Sounds like they're trying very hard to push this, and that makes me very skeptical.

Thanks pewter, I actually identify with your post. Do you read alternative media on COVID and the vaccine?

amother

Brown

Mon, May 10 2021, 7:24 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

I will also say that I find it suspicious how quickly this vaccine was released when there are so many other diseases that scientists have been working decades and decades to come up with a vaccine and failed. Doesn't mean anything necessarily, but another red flag.

.

What makes it suspicious, when we are in the middle of a global pandemic? All all resources, time and manpower were designated to this and labs literally stopped everything they were working on, and focused their attention to this. I don't think there is any one diseases that has gotten this attention, focus, manpower and resources thrown its way.

The coronavirus family is not a new one. Science is familiar with it, and it has been under study for some time. So there was plenty of understanding about it before the pandemic. But with the other diseases that we're struggling with, science hasn't made much inroads yet. Perhaps if one disease suddenly attacks all of humankind at once, the labs would go into hyperdrive as they did now and make significant progress. But the speed is really not suspicious.

If you read between all the worry and hysteria, you'll see that most of it is based on a lack of knowledge in either science or in the process of how the vaccines were created.

tweety1

Mon, May 10 2021, 7:24 pm

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

Thank you for that!!! After what’s been going on on this site I was waiting to duck for cover.
The people who believe all these anti vaccine theories, usually live their life going natural remedies vs medical. It works for them. There are different paths to healing. They should all be respected.
Most though are not anti vaxxers. They are anti this vaccine FOR NOW.

You hit the nail on the head. I'm not anti vax. I give vaccines although my last baby I'm giving on a very delayed schedule. But DC will get them all. I'm very into natural but I also fully understand that many times medication is needed and I never substitute natural for medicine if it's serious stuff. (Think ear infection v. Skin infection) I do try to take my vitamins and give them to my kids. But when DC had strept you bet dc was on meds. But the covid vaccine is something entirely different. I never said I'll never give it. NOW I'm not. And probably won't for the next few yrs. But that is all subject to change. For all you know in 5 or 10 yrs from now I'll come on here and say I got the covid vaccine.

Laiya

Mon, May 10 2021, 7:25 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Just referring to the one about the vacc'd spreading the illness: it goes against everything I've learned in molecular biology.

As with everything, we don't know until properly designed studies are conducted. JNJ swore up and down that there was no possibility their vaccine could cause brain bleeds. But they were wrong.

We know spike is harmful, we know the vaccine causes the body to produce trillions of spike proteins. We do not know for certain that people don't shed any of these trillions of spike proteins via breathing, sweat, coughing, or that if they do, other people don't contract those harmful spike proteins. Afaik, no studies have been done on this issue so it cannot be simply disregarded. (Remember this vaccine is not like other vaccines where you are injected with a viral fragment.)

I'm also not sure why you're addressing only those who are questioning this vaccine. Pro vaxers have also expressed beliefs that appear to be similarly not based on evidence. Ex. claims the vaccine cures long-term autoimmune issues caused by covid.

Also, in general, regardless of topic, we are all highly influenced by stories within our personal frame of reference, even though we know intellectually that these may not be representative and correlation / causation, etc. This type of reasoning is used on both sides.

amother

Brown

Mon, May 10 2021, 7:32 pm

Laiya wrote:

A spike protein is a structural protein that penetrates cells. In itself, without a virus or bacteria attached to it, is harmless. In itself it can do nothing. The phrase 'harmful spike proteins' is an incorrect statement. Spike proteins are also not contagions. They can't move from one person to another.

Again, it's a lack of knowledge that feeds conspiracies.

Laiya

Mon, May 10 2021, 8:02 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Please do share. I saw the original studies that lent support, then I saw all the studies (across countries) that showed it had no impact. Being that the drug has significant side effects, its risk outweighs some unknown possibilities. Has there been new studies disproving this? I honestly would like to know, can you please share the source(s)?

I believe the evidence is hcq is effective only when given early in the disease, and only when together with zinc. That was what was claimed all along. I don't think any studies showed hcq is not effective under those circumstances, and the risk is miniscule.

amother

Amethyst

Mon, May 10 2021, 8:07 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Amother red I feel your pain and anger and I want to acknowledge that. Thank you for your post.

I still don't understand why anyone would believe the content out there and spread it to more people. You see things on this site like vaccinated people are a danger to the unvaccinated!? Can you help me understand why people would swallow this kind of idea?

Because there are thousands of people across the world all reporting this. The exact same thing. 86 year old grandmother menstruating after being exposed to the vaccine. Post menopausal, adolescents getting periods. Women losing period for months and not pregnant.

We already know and see that the media won't report anything against the miraculous elixir of life vaccine. So the people on the ground are the news source. And they're more trustworthy than the media.

I can't understand why you can't understand that.

amother

Brown

Mon, May 10 2021, 8:09 pm

Laiya wrote:

The studies were focused around what you describe above. And the risk is not miniscule. HCQ has significant cardiac effects.

Please show studies that show otherwise.

Laiya

Mon, May 10 2021, 8:10 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

It's not a conspiracy to ask questions and be open to all possible outcomes, that's actually the only way to discover new things.

There is evidence that the spike protein alone is pathogenic. I haven't seen any evidence that spike protein is not pathogenic when not attached to a virus. If you have seen such studies I would very much like to read them.

amother

Brown

Mon, May 10 2021, 8:17 pm

Laiya wrote:

A spike protein is complex that opens a path through a cell membrane. It opens it up so that the virus can insert its dna inside it. That's its purpose. If a spike protein is isolated, all it can do is poke a hole in the cell membrane. But without anything attached to it, there is nothing to go inside the cell. There is nothing to cause any pathogenic response.

Spike proteins are just a tool in the hands of a pathogen. Remove the pathogen from it, you're just left with the tool.

Do you have any evidence that shows isolated spike proteins are pathogenic? Please share.

Laiya

Mon, May 10 2021, 8:32 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

The studies were focused around what you describe above. And the risk is not miniscule. HCQ has significant cardiac effects.

Please show studies that show otherwise.

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

No, there is evidence indicating the spike protein is pathogenic in addition to its role of allowing the virus to penetrate the cell. I don't want to derail but if you pm me I will share what I've come across.

amother

Brown

Mon, May 10 2021, 8:44 pm

Laiya wrote:

Iirc the risk is similar or lower than for azithromycin, which risk level most people are comfortable with and take routinely. It was on the market for more than 30 years and regularly prescribed on an outpatient basis until covid.

No, there is evidence indicating the spike protein is pathogenic in addition to its role of allowing the virus to penetrate the cell. I don't want to derail but if you pm me I will share what I've come across.

The first paragraph is false. The risk for Hydroxychloroquinone is higher than azithromycin. A person's medical condition is carefully evaluated before being prescribed hcq. Even when hcq was originally being prescribed, there were patients for whom they were withheld from because of the risks involved. Dr. Zelenko personally refused to issue it to my father because of the risks involved. My father has no issues with the common antibiotic drugs.

Please note that I'm in the medical field as well as in biomedical sciences. The risks between the two drugs is not comparable. And as far as I know, there isn't a biological pathogenicity associated with isolated spike proteins. Why are you hesitant to release the information on a public forum, it's not private information? Because of my unique positions in this field, I would rather not expose my username. Please share them here.

#BestBubby

Mon, May 10 2021, 10:19 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Just referring to the one about the vacc'd spreading the illness: it goes against everything I've learned in molecular biology.

Or hydroxychloroquine, which people on this site still mention sometimes, which has been shown to have serious side effects. No, I don't think the FDA is holding out on us with that one.

I can list more if you'd like. But that's not the point.

OP, the study showing that Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) was FRAUDULENT and has been WITHDRAWN.

The Hydroxycloroquine protocol is to use HCQ IMMEDIATELY upon symptoms - HCQ is not
as effective in Curing Covid after FIVE Days. HCQ to be used TOGETHER with Zinc and Antibiotics.

The FAKE Study did not give HCQ until patient was very sick and had to hospitalized.
It was waaaaay after 5 days since symptoms so now HCQ is not effective.
And it was not combined with Zinc and Antibiotics.

Worse, doctors gave a MASSIVE OVERDOSE of HCQ.

OP, is that proof HCQ is dangerous???

If I give people MASSIVE OVERDOSES of ASPIRIN and they die,
does that make aspirin dangerous???

When people see such blatant fraud, they see the Propoganda is from the Pro-Vax side
and we are not being fooled.

Last edited by #BestBubby on Mon, May 10 2021, 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

#BestBubby

Mon, May 10 2021, 10:21 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

There are many threads discussing this all over the site, that's not what I'm asking. I can read plenty of threads advocating views on both sides of the coin. Every person migrates to the answers with their own confirmation bias.

What I'm trying to understand is how peoples' feelings are so strong, they accept disproven ideas or obvious untruths.

OP I have just DEBUNKED your claim that it was shown that Hydroxycloroquine is dangerous
and ineffective against Covid.

What are theories do you believe have been "debunked"?

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, May 10 2021, 10:31 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Theoretically they can be pathogenic just by the fact that they are a protein foreign to the human body and a catalyst for an immune response.

HealthCoach

Mon, May 10 2021, 11:16 pm

Quote:

Why do you blindly trust a bunch of blog articles that also push an agenda? How do you just swallow a bunch of myths and partial truths? Where is your cynicism then?

I read blogs and articles written by doctors I know and trust. I might decide to trust someone new who aligns with a doctor I already trust, but I don’t trust any random thing I come across, and I take the writer’s motive into account.

I know people harmed by other vaccines, so I already know that a vaccine can harm. I have positive experiences with natural healing.

It would be impossible for anyone to convince me this vaccine is perfectly safe without studies on the long term effects. When someone questions why no one is looking into the 3500 deaths that can be seen on CDC website, I question too. I give my kids the other vaccines. The CDC has more reports of deaths after the covid vaccine in 4 months than all the vaccines combined over 20 years.

Last edited by HealthCoach on Mon, May 10 2021, 11:35 pm; edited 2 times in total