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amother




Bronze
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 7:05 am
DrMom wrote:
If there are actual permits, I'll wait until this information is reported. So far that's not what I have read.

Re: the bolded: I am not up-to-date re: the number of people allowed to gather indoors these days, but there seem to be upwards of 1000 unmasked people in this indoor gathering.



Not saying that has anything to do with the bleacher collapse, but it seems to contradict your claim that this is a community which is a stickler for following safety laws.


It is common sense that the country does not presently stand in regards to Corona where it had stood prior to vaccinations. At this point, (almost) everyone has either been vaccinated or recovered.
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 7:13 am
Everyone there is vaccinated or recovered (or both).

I posted an article (from Arutz7, not chareidi press) that says they have ishurim and are giving them to the authorities.

Why do you only believe the negative articles and not the positive articles when it comes to chareidim?
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 7:14 am
Iymnok wrote:
We heard and saw helicopters until after the men came home last night. There were announcements to stay out of the streets to let the ambulances free passage. We saw the helicopters dip down, I guess to do airlifts.
DS9 heard the Hatzolah calls on the radios of the local volunteers.
There were rumors throughout Yomtov.
Many thought the announcements from the helicopters were to stay inside due to a Terrorist on the loose. B”H those proved false.


DH's whole department was called in and he was in hospital most of chag operating on casualties.

Given recent events, I thought I'd mention: not all the Jewish doctors in his department received the initial call because it was yom tov and they weren't necessarily near their phones. All his Arab colleagues came immediately and were working tirelessly throughout the night to save and stabilise and treat victims. DH told me motzei Yom Tov that one of them is suffering from symptoms of trauma as a result of what he saw and experienced in the ER.
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amother




Cobalt
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 7:14 am
amother [ Bronze ] wrote:
It is common sense that the country does not presently stand in regards to Corona where it had stood prior to vaccinations. At this point, (almost) everyone has either been vaccinated or recovered.


True. But legally, at an indoor gathering, certainly at one of this magnitude, you still need to wear a mask.

In any case, that's not the issue here.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 7:40 am
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
Everyone there is vaccinated or recovered (or both).

I posted an article (from Arutz7, not chareidi press) that says they have ishurim and are giving them to the authorities.

Why do you only believe the negative articles and not the positive articles when it comes to chareidim?

As I said, I'm basing my opinion about the situation based on what is known so far. I will re-evaluate my opinion as the investigation develops. So far, there documents that were presented to the media that show that there was no occupancy permit for this unfinished shul. If these ishurim that you mention are also published, then we shall see how the investigation evolves.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 8:31 am
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
True. But legally, at an indoor gathering, certainly at one of this magnitude, you still need to wear a mask.

In any case, that's not the issue here.


No one wears masks anymore indoors. Chareidim, Chilonim, Arabs, no one. When I go on public transportation I'm one of the only ones wearing one
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heidi




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 8:33 am
LovesHashem wrote:
No one wears masks anymore indoors. Chareidim, Chilonim, Arabs, no one. When I go on public transportation I'm one of the only ones wearing one

I don't know where you hang out but in central Israel everyone in a mall or in any store, everyone in shul is wearing a mask.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 8:41 am
heidi wrote:
I don't know where you hang out but in central Israel everyone in a mall or in any store, everyone in shul is wearing a mask.

Same. I assume the law will change soon, but for now, that rule is still in place.
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amother




Royalblue
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 8:44 am
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
Everyone there is vaccinated or recovered (or both).

I posted an article (from Arutz7, not chareidi press) that says they have ishurim and are giving them to the authorities.

Why do you only believe the negative articles and not the positive articles when it comes to chareidim?


The article didn't say that they had ishurim, it quoted an unsubstantiated statement from the chassidus that they had ishurim.

If Karlin-Stolin got permits, they should show them, especially since there's evidence to the contrary. This will give everyone clarity in moving forward.
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amother




Cobalt
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 8:49 am
LovesHashem wrote:
No one wears masks anymore indoors. Chareidim, Chilonim, Arabs, no one. When I go on public transportation I'm one of the only ones wearing one


As others said, I don't know where you live, but in my city most people in the mall, stores, doctor's office, wears one.

I will agree that people are a lot more lax about it than a few months ago, and you often see masks not covering noses, but at least there is a semblance of a mask.

Certainly if you have over a thousand people crowded tightly together indoors, the law would be to wear a mask. I can't imagine there are performances now where the audience isn't required to wear a mask.
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 8:55 am
The article referenced gives a rather ambiguous statement that "attempts to link the bleachers to the construction site itself should be rejected". It would seem to bear out an earlier comment that possibly the bleachers were authorized while the building - explicitly referred to as a construction site - was not yet authorized. The reluctance to make public any documentation doesn't really help matters.
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amother




Cobalt
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 9:11 am
Elfrida wrote:
The article referenced gives a rather ambiguous statement that "attempts to link the bleachers to the construction site itself should be rejected". It would seem to bear out an earlier comment that possibly the bleachers were authorized while the building - explicitly referred to as a construction site - was not yet authorized. The reluctance to make public any documentation doesn't really help matters.


Maybe the bleachers themselves were authorized to be rented out. The question is whether any authority checked them once they were actually constructed.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 10:19 am
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
Maybe the bleachers themselves were authorized to be rented out. The question is whether any authority checked them once they were actually constructed.

This article and accompanying video suggest that the upper bleachers were not even finished - they were just tied to the existing structure with twisted wire. Nothing was screwed down.

https://www.ynetnews.com/magaz.....CsJYO

Quote:
...police decided to leave the investigation of the incident in the hands of the Tel Aviv District Anti-Corruption Unit.

One person documented the sloppy construction of the bleacher at the venue. The section that collapsed was an extension built from wooden beams and tied with iron wire to a bleacher that was already installed in the venue.

"Nothing is connected or tied together, there are no screws. That's the extension that fell," the man can be heard saying in the footage. Other documentation from the place shows children taking part in the construction of the makeshift bleacher.


There is a video showing the evidence of this in the article I linked. I cannot post the video.
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champion




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 12:46 pm
I find it sickening that the jury is already out about this tragedy and there is almost a deafening silence when it comes to researching the meiron tragedy
I find it sickening that all this back and forth is taking place in the 'need tehillim' forum.
I find it sickening that after the meiron tragedy the police and other officials declared that it wouldn't be appropriate to create a vaadat chakira while the families were sitting shiva but no such decency is being given here.
I find it sickening that corona obedience is even being picked apart here.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 12:57 pm
This case is easier to investigate than the Meron case. Fewer players, clear ownership, lower profile case, fewer deaths.
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 1:39 pm
champion wrote:
I find it sickening that the jury is already out about this tragedy and there is almost a deafening silence when it comes to researching the meiron tragedy
I find it sickening that all this back and forth is taking place in the 'need tehillim' forum.
I find it sickening that after the meiron tragedy the police and other officials declared that it wouldn't be appropriate to create a vaadat chakira while the families were sitting shiva but no such decency is being given here.
I find it sickening that corona obedience is even being picked apart here.


You are right. The jury was out on yom tov by the secular media before the community even had a chance to process what happened.

I'm not chassidish at all but I have friends and relatives who are Stolin and they told me that the media camped out on Rechov Ha'etrog all Shavuos videoing and photographing them. The Rebba told them not to speak to the media at all, so any reports are just biased media speculation.

We get upset at BBC and CNN for their anti-Israel bias when reporting about this current war, yet we do the same thing within our own country.
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amother




Honeydew
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 1:50 pm
champion wrote:
I find it sickening that the jury is already out about this tragedy and there is almost a deafening silence when it comes to researching the meiron tragedy
I find it sickening that all this back and forth is taking place in the 'need tehillim' forum.
I find it sickening that after the meiron tragedy the police and other officials declared that it wouldn't be appropriate to create a vaadat chakira while the families were sitting shiva but no such decency is being given here.
I find it sickening that corona obedience is even being picked apart here.


Agreed. Thought to be honest, the same media outlets, and also the very same posters on here, were blaming the victims for the tragedy right when it happened then as well.
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Iymnok




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 2:05 pm
I think with this one there are more of us who are a little familiar with the place, the community, the type of event and the likely precautions.
Misinformation is more quickly debunked.
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amother




Honeydew
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 2:21 pm
Iymnok wrote:
I think with this one there are more of us who are a little familiar with the place, the community, the type of event and the likely precautions.
Misinformation is more quickly debunked.


So basically, because this tragedy happened in a specific community, we can just 'other' them and pat ourselves on our backs that this only happened because they did x,y,z and would never ch'v happen to any of us?

(As an aside, although I don't have any affiliation with this chassidus, or any chassidus for that matter, I believe they have a reputation for taking safety pretty seriously in general.)
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Iymnok




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 18 2021, 2:32 pm
amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:
So basically, because this tragedy happened in a specific community, we can just 'other' them and pat ourselves on our backs that this only happened because they did x,y,z and would never happen to any of us?

(As an aside, although I don't have any affiliation with this chassidus, or any chassidus for that matter, I believe they have a reputation for taking safety pretty seriously in general.)


I am not intimately familiar with the community, but we could see the new building from parts of my neighborhood. Some Karliners live here and many slept here for Shavuos. My neighbors answered the emergency calls in their capacity in hotzolah. Being under the same moatza we have the same laws. We also used the shell of our new Shul for events. The lack of windows makes it an outside venue.
Many Karliners are Hatzolah members which is why they could park an ambulance outside the Shul. It totally could have happened to any of us. Non chassidim like to go as well.
This Chassidus are very law abiding.
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